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Another What Would You Do
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  Nickname: JohnF
Posts: 1718
Member Since: 8/14/99

Posted: 11/21/2008 6:59pm
Views:   2262
Replies: 3
  Happy  Another What Would You Do  
Vancouver Dave's scenario below reminded me a an incident which happened about 20 years ago. As usual, I'll wait for some responses and then post what was done.

I was the CR in a teen boys game. The lead AR was one of these guys who often over officiated, and who frequently waved the flag for doubtfuls & triflings.

Team A was on the attack in Team B's defensive third, and Team A had a throw in. A1 made a long throw into the penalty area. The lead AR began to frantically wave his flag for a foul throw, although I saw no offense. I signaled to the AR to lower the flag.

Player B1 (who was standing in his penalty area) saw the flag and caught the ball with both hands. He immediately threw it back to the spot of the throw, where B2 had already moved to take a throw in.

   
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  Nickname: Brianm
Posts: 492
Member Since: 4/20/00

Posted: 11/23/2008 10:25pm
Views:   2245
Replies: 1
  Re: Another What Would You Do  
Once again players should be playing the whistle. At the point when he caught it he would then hear a whistle for handling.

   
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  Nickname: RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave

Posts: 727
Member Since: 4/16/02

Posted: 11/24/2008 5:15pm
Views:   2235
Replies: 1
  Re: Another What Would You Do  
I would need serious security protection if I awarded the 'book' answer Brianm suggests, which is a PK. That is a call that is not going to fly for EITHER team, and it shouldn't. Our sense of the game should scream at the thought of awarding a PK for this AR-baited offense.

If I believe the AR's flag is incorrect, I also cannot award a throw-in to team B.

The other easy escape route is to have team A re-take the throw. The teams might accept it. But it's tough to find a basis for this in the Laws. So we ought to eye that option warily.

What we have is a play on goal which the officials have mangled. There is nothing the crew can do to fully fix it. But I believe an acceptable response is to sound the whistle, consult with the AR if you think the drama will help sell the call or prevent a repeat gaff, and then do a drop-ball restart. (You can debate location, if you'd like.)

A dropped ball is a way of restarting the
match after a temporary stoppage which
becomes necessary, while the ball is in
play, for any reason not mentioned
elsewhere in the Laws of the Game. (Law 8)

'Referee Error' is not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws, and that's the reason for the stoppage.

[ Modified 11/24/2008 5:07pm by RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave ]

   
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  Nickname: Brianm
Posts: 492
Member Since: 4/20/00

Posted: 11/25/2008 3:56pm
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Replies: 1
  Re: Another What Would You Do  
My reason for the handling call is the ref who has the control of the game did not call anything. Players should be playing the whistle and nothing else. This is a good time to teach that to players. I am not a ref but a coach and as one I would have no problem with a ref calling this on my players. Did the player catching the ball based on the AR flag know that the ref waved it off? Nope, thus play the whistle, call handling. By not calling it you as a ref is affecting the game by not making the correct call. The player make the error no need to compound it by the ref making another one on top of his. Just my opinion as a coach.

   
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  Nickname: refmike
Posts: 639
Member Since: 4/30/03

Posted: 11/28/2008 4:00pm
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  Re: Another What Would You Do  
Another method to save face would be to consult with the AR and then decide that his flag was for something you did not see and should be accepted. Call it a player out of position with decision made before the throw was completed so restart would be a retake.

   
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  Nickname: JohnF
Posts: 1718
Member Since: 8/14/99

Posted: 11/29/2008 8:13pm
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Replies: 2
  Happy  What I Did  
I loudly announced "foul throw, throw in for Team B" or something to that affect. Luckily, no one had seen me wave down the flag. Based on the circumstances, I simply felt that awarding a PK would not be in keeping with the spirit of the laws.

I did, however, have a quick and very quiet word with B1. I told him I "almost" overruled the AR on the play, which would have resulted in a PK. I recommended that in the future he should wait for a whistle.

   
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  Nickname: Brianm
Posts: 492
Member Since: 4/20/00

Posted: 12/1/2008 12:23pm
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  And refs wonder why they get yelled at?  
Team A did nothing wrong, team B did handle the ball and you give the ball to team B. Why should team A get screwed out of the ball and have their attack stopped when the other team handled the ball. Is it within the sprit of the laws of the game to alter what happened and take the ball out of team A attack and award the ball to team B who was totally wrong. You waved off the AR and player B did not play the whistle and you rewarded his team with the ball. Damn I would be very upset as a coach. Remember the old saying two wrongs don't make a right? That is what we have here. The correct call is PK and not punish the team that did everything correct. I might buy an off ball foul and let team A still have the ball but to take it way is really really WRONG!!!!

[ Modified 12/1/2008 12:24pm by Brianm ]

   
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  Nickname: JohnF
Posts: 1718
Member Since: 8/14/99

Posted: 12/1/2008 5:45pm
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Replies: 1
  Happy  Re: Another What Would You Do  
Brian, please make yourself clear. If you disagree with my call, just say so! :-)

Seriously, though, had this happened a year or 2 before it did I would have awarded the PK. I had read a reffing book from England, however, one part of which did a good job of illustrating differences between the spirit and the letter of the laws.

There were a couple of match examples in the book which were similar to the events on this play. My verbalization on the play, in fact, was almost taken straight from one of the examples.

In any event, had someone complained a simple, true, and legal per the letter of the laws explaination was available. I simply reversed my decision to wave down the flag and went with the AR's (linesman's back in those days!) opinion.




   
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  Nickname: Brianm
Posts: 492
Member Since: 4/20/00

Posted: 12/1/2008 6:46pm
Views:   2192
Replies: 1
  Devlish  I disagree  
I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE!!!!!

Even your by the letter of the law excuse is not IMO the way to go with the call. You still are going against the team that did nothing wrong. And to me that is just plain wrong. Lets take it a step further. Team B now gets the throw in based on what you did. They throw it in and 2 passes later score. Is that still fair to team A, that did nothing wrong? Is that what the spirit of the game about?

Oh by the way, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE, I DISAGREE.

Maybe if we keep this going more people will start to visit this site again.

[ Modified 12/1/2008 6:48pm by Brianm ]

   
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  Nickname: Refchris
Posts: 129
Member Since: 2/22/03

Posted: 12/2/2008 4:17am
Views:   2189
Replies: 2
  Re: I disagree  
Being that this was a teen boys game, I would have gone with the PK and a word to the player that caught it. By this age group, they should know better than to not play the whistle. It is a hard pill to swallow but I can guarantee the players of both teams will get the point and will not soon forget it.
I think that as a referee in younger age groups we should act as teachers to the players, coaches and parents. By the teen years they should all know the laws and play accordingly.

   
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  Nickname: ref47
Posts: 295
Member Since: 1/25/05

Posted: 12/3/2008 6:02am
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Replies: 0
  Re: I disagree  
i do not cut slack for players who fail to play to the whistle and follow ar flags or what they thought should have been called. i have seen many a keeper mess up a play because he thought the offside flag meant that offside had been called. but, the ball easily went back to the keeper and i did not whistle and waived down the flag to continue playing. keeper rolls ball out to get the ifk. keeper better hope the opponent is sleeping and does not jump on that ball in play.

   
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  Nickname: RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave

Posts: 727
Member Since: 4/16/02

Posted: 12/10/2008 4:50pm
Views:   2139
Replies: 1
  Happy  Play the whistle?  
"Play the whistle????" Has this changed to a pointy-ball discussion?

In FIFA Soccer, a whistle is not required to stop play. In fact, my scan of the FIFA laws shows that the word Whistle only appears once in the entire document. It appears only a few more times in ATR. Go take a look at what these documents actually say about the referee's whistle. You may be surprised!

We use a whistle for convenience. But whistles are NOT a mandatory part of the international game. That is VERY different from American Football. (It's also different from NFHS Soccer.)

So I am still unwilling to award a PK against a team because they didn't wait for an OPTIONAL signal. I believe this handling mistake, based on an AR's erroneous flag, is better treated the same as an inadvertent whistle in ATR 8.4: dropped ball.

By the way, the closest thing you'll find to 'Play the Whistle' in these documents is in ATR 9.2. Even so, that clause tells us to restart with a dropped ball when a player wrongly believes the Ref has signalled a stoppage and, acting on that genuine confusion, handles the ball.

Dave

[ Modified 12/10/2008 4:46pm by RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave ]

   
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  Nickname: ref47
Posts: 295
Member Since: 1/25/05

Posted: 12/11/2008 6:52am
Views:   2140
Replies: 1
  Re: Play the whistle?  
whistles are a mandatory part of the ifab instructions. see page 76 of the 08-09 lotg, interpretations ... . a whistle is needed to tell the players that a free kick is awarded.

also,
a whistle is needed to stop play when an ar advises the ref that offside should be punished.
a whistle is needed when it is not clear that the ball went into touch and play continues (ar normally indicating that the ball is into touch).
a whistle is needed when the ball crosses the goal line and quickly returns to play (ar normally indicating that the ball is into touch).

   
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  Nickname: RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave

Posts: 727
Member Since: 4/16/02

Posted: 12/14/2008 2:02pm
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  Winking  Re: Play the whistle?  
Ok, ref47, let's recap some of the story so far.

The scenario we are talking about is the stopping of play for a free throw. The AR indicated a foul throw. Others have said that the players on the field were to 'play the whistle,' meaning keep playing until the Referee sounded his whistle. I stated that a whistle is not required in this scenario, unlike pointy ball.

The same page you quoted from, page 76, states that a whistle signal is NOT required to stop play for a throw in.

This supports my contention that players are not expected to 'play the whistle' for a throw-in scenario. Based on that, I suggest that it is unwise and unnecessary to award a PK against the players who were baited by an overly-zealous AR. A dropped ball is a more appropriate response to this series of events.

Vancouver Dave

[ Modified 12/14/2008 2:04pm by RefFormerlyKnownAsVancouverDave ]

   
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  Nickname: JohnF
Posts: 1718
Member Since: 8/14/99

Posted: 12/15/2008 8:05am
Views:   2131
Replies: 1
  Happy  Re: Another What Would You Do  
Just to add to this, in the intial scenario I was the only person who thought that play had not been stopped. Of course, since I was the CR my opinion could be considered to be of some consequence!

As soon as the flag went up, the players from both teams stopped. No players from Team A challenged for the ball, and they immediately began taking positions to defend for a throw by Team B. There was absolutely no controversy on this play, as both teams were playing the AR's flag, and everyone thought play had been stopped.

   
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  Nickname: ref47
Posts: 295
Member Since: 1/25/05

Posted: 12/15/2008 9:25am
Views:   2125
Replies: 1
  Re: Another What Would You Do  
but, this is not the case of a ball going INTO touch. it is a ball coming into play and an ar advising that that action did not happen according to the law and should be punished. as we generally accept (without everything being spelled out in the lotg) play restarted when the ball entered the fop, unless the referee said it did not. the ar's flag is a suggestion to the ref that play should not be allowed to restart. no whistle, no call, play restarted. and as someone is fond of saying, the laws are not written to compensate for players' mistakes.

   
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  Nickname: refmike
Posts: 639
Member Since: 4/30/03

Posted: 12/16/2008 9:57am
Views:   2132
Replies: 1
  Re: Another What Would You Do  
Ref47 is correct. Per Law 9, play is stopped ONLY when the ball leaves the field or when the referee stops play. In this case the ball had come into play and was on the field so any stoppage must be by the referee and the referee did not create such a stoppage.

The need to use the whistle is logical (Law 18). If the ref were standing next to the player with the ball, he could have just said "stop" but with the play some distance away, the only reasonable means to let players know that the referee is stopping the game is with a whistle.


   
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  Nickname: keith__286
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Member Since: 12/19/03

Posted: 12/16/2008 2:28pm
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  Re: Another What Would You Do  
We need a way within Law to get out of a bad situation. Interestingly, it's a coach,Brian, that wants us to adhere to the letter of the Law. Others have said we are not to compensate for player's mistakes. I think given the age group it's within the Spirit of the Law not to award a PK. Likewise, as Brian rightly points out, it is unfair for the referee to make believe he agrees with the AR and award a throw to the opponents. From the description of play it is apparant to me that EVERYONE except the center thought play had stopped. the player that caught the ball immediately threw it towards the touchline. Law 5 gives us the authority to ignore breeches of the Law that are trifling and do not effect the game. No one was disadvantaged by the deliberate handling and it seems that the opponents agreed that play had stopped as they're not screaming for a PK. View the handling as trifling. Now we have the ball headed towards the touchline.Up till now, the referee has given no indication of any kind that play has stopped.It didn't stop when the player deliberately handled the ball because the referee didn't blow the whistle. Blow the whistle and stop play now. It's an inadvertant whistle so we restart with a dropped ball at the touchline or let the ball go over the touchline and guess what? Now we have a throw for the team that originally took the throw. At that point tell all the players loudly and clearly to NOT play the ARs flag

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