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I've got an administrative complaint to air
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  Nickname: DCohio
Posts: 1519
Member Since: 3/07/00

Posted: 1/4/2006 9:02pm
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  I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I don't know if it's the same all over the country but here in Ohio, at basketball games the student sections chant things back and forth to each other. It is done in school spirit and the students do a good job of keeping the chanting in context.

A few weeks ago our basketball team was losing to a league team and their student section started chanting "over rated" so our student section started chanting "let's play football" (we beat them 30-3)...anyway the chanting kept going, they chanted back, "let's play soccer" our student section chanted back "that's not a sport" they retorted with some chant and our student section responded with "he got jacked up" referencing one of their players who got jacked up in the football game...and when I say he got jacked up, I mean he tried handing the ball to our LBer, the kid tried to get up and wobbled sideways for 4 yards before falling back down.

In any event, the day following that basketball game the Principal...on direction from the AD...made an anouncement that our students were not allowed to chant or cheer against the other team. They were only allowed to cheer for our team. He went on to say that students were not allowed to dress in crazy costumes with basketballs on their heads or go shirtless with our team name written on their chest. They were also not allowed to turn their backs to the gym floor while the opposing team's starters were introduced, no tailgating before games, etc.

There were some other things but you get the idea.

The students are under threat of suspension if they violate any of the stated "no-no's"

Here's my gripe:

While I agee that our student section should not single out a player or players on the court, I see nothing wrong with chanting back and forth with the opposing student section. Many of the kids know each other and there is no ill-will meant towards the opposing team. They are just showing school spirit.

To date, there has been NO post game fights in the parking lot or anywhere else.

My issue with this Principal and AD is they have obviously not been anywhere that has no school spirit at all.

I teach at a school where they had a bigger gate for the Jr./Sr. Powderpuff football game than they did on friday night for their cross city rival. The apathy in our HS is unbelievable and quite saddening but still a fact.

I don't know what this pricipal and AD's malfunction is, what is wrong with school spirit? Have we gotten so polically correct that we can no longer have non-violent confrontation?

I told my daughter to just cheer like she has always cheered and if that pricipal tries to suspend her, he, I and the BOE will be in court on a first ammendment issue. He can make her leave the game..but he cannot suspend her from school and I will take him to court over it.

Just one of the many reasons I want the heck out of the school I have been coaching at for the past 13 seasons.

On a funny note to the story, the student section was absent from the last home basketball game. 100 or so students that usually come to every game home or away, didn't show up. Being that we have 8 more home games, I wonder if the AD is concerned about the $500 per game he is losing at the gate. Oh well...he deserves it.

Happy to be leaving that school district, let me get out in the world where "Competition" is not a bad word.

   
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  Nickname: Kakavian
Posts: 689
Member Since: 6/20/02

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:20pm
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Its all over the country there mate. Not Just Ohio.

   
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  Nickname: LostCoach__1
Posts: 231
Member Since: 11/27/02

Posted: 1/5/2006 5:40am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
It's everywhere. Our principal (whom I have an office next to) is spineless when it comes to parents.

4 years ago, a group of 15 senior boys that do not play football started a fan group. They would go to all football games home and away, tailgate, and basically hang out an have fun. These guys would be in the parking staking out their territory the minute the parking lot cleared from school. If it were an away game, they would leave the minute the bell rang. They were ALWAYS there when the team arrived.

Well, we beat our sister school, a team we had not beaten since 1974 and these guys go crazy. They stay in the parking lot screaming, chanting, until everyone left. When the opposing team leaves they are pointing fingers and chanting at them. This upsets some of the parent from the other team and they call our principal at home.

The next Monday, the number one priority on our weekly meeting agenda is to address fan behavior especially in the parking lot. THe AP that deals with discipline and I think that the activity is a good thing for the school, the curriculum AP and Principal disagree and think we should take steps to "address the problem" She got pissed when I implied there was no problem.

Anyway, She makes an "executive decision" and goes on the morning annoncements declaring that there will be no more grills allowed in the parking lot, no more tailgating activities.

I make the mistake of telling one of our booster club parents (who fully support the activity) that it was her decision alone and that I had nothing to do with it.

In the next 2 days her secretary tells me that 50 parents have called with 20 requesting meetings over the issue. The principal then calls me in and chews me out for telling parents to call her and writes a reprimand for my actions.

To make a long story short, it lasts 1 game and then the original 15 guys decide to defy her and tailgate anyway, with their parents Eventually the whole thing went away, but my working relationship with her is strained, It would have been a lot easier to go along.

But this is my point. We have kids having fun without alcohol or drugs, and we try to get rid of that because they are acting like kids do. IF you get kids to come to games, you are going to have some problems, THEY ARE KIDS.

It used to be that adminstrators were usually ex-coaches, but in our state the requirements to become an adminstrator are so extensive that there is no way a coach would have the time to go back to school. Consequently, we have adminstrators that never coached, were never involved in athletics, and view athletics as a secondary activity - even when every study shows that athletes are ingeneral better students.

   

   
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  Nickname: busman__1
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Member Since: 5/17/02

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:10am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Let me respond from an Administrator's side.

As a fan, I'm a "fanatic" for my team. Tearing down the other team and their fans, taunting, etc., gains nothing. As an administrator, it's my job to keep things from happening and the behavior that both of you described is kindling for big time problems.

Given my choice of shutting down a raucous crowd or visiting the parents of a dead child to inform them that their child had been shot walking to their car after a game, I'll clear the gym everytime.

   
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  Nickname: LostCoach__1
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Posted: 1/5/2006 11:02am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I too am an administrator. I am AD and handle more game supervision than all the principals in my building combined.   

There is nothing wrong with the chanting back and forth between groups of kids across a basketball court that was described by DC. As long as the language is kept in check and they are not singleing out a specific kid, it sounds fine to me.

I have dealt with kids at basketball games that have thrown things on the court, did the "Bullsh**" Chant, and started heckling a specific player. But to take drastic measures when kids are yelling back and forth is ludicris.

As for the football game I described. It was wrong for the taunting of the other team as they left by the students. In fact I dealt with the kids that did the taunting and even apologized to the other coach. He wasn't even aware that anything happened.   

BUT In no way should the measures that were taken have been taken in either instance.

When I have unruly fans, I deal with them individually. If there is a verbal confrontation or a physical confrontation, it should be handled case by case, not a blanket policy that ruins things for the 98% of the kids who are not doing anything wrong.

When you are in charge, you have to deal with conflict (something the people I work with do not understand). I don not make decisions based on a fear of the extreme happening.

   


   
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  Nickname: busman__1
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Posted: 1/5/2006 11:29am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
If you handle more game supervision then your principals combined, that's the problem. Tuesday night, our first home conference game, neither team expected to be very good. Maybe 600 in a 2400 seat gym. We had two principals (we have a split campus, 9-10 and 11-12), three assistants, eight football coaches sitting in the four corners on the floor, the supt, the asst supt, the director of secondary ed, two school resource officers, two school campus supervisors, 4 city rent a cops and the busman there (not that I do much good).

At the end of the game, in a town of 65,000, we have an arrangement with the chief of police that all patrol cars in the central district that are not otherwise engaged descend on the campus, usually 8-12 patrol cars.

Overkill? Maybe. But it sure keeps down the trouble. And, by the way, one principal came back in the building after picking up a 9 milimeter slug that had hit the wall about 4 feet above his head and fell to the ground while he wqas standing there watching some of the crowd leave after the girls game.

[ Modified 1/5/2006 11:33am by busman__1 ]

   
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  Nickname: LostCoach__1
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:12am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I never said we had a problem with supervision. I have plenty of people supervising, they are not administrators. mostly they are out of season coaches making a little extra money. I would rather have coaches at games than the administration staff any day.

BUT, this whole thread is about the over-reaction of administrators to incidents such as the ones described. That is the problem here. This is a problem accross America.

My point (and I think DC's as well) is that we have adminstrators that make blanket decisions that are squashing school spirit and taking the fun out of attending any sporting event for the kids. Worse yet, adminstrators are doing this in the name the possible threat of something happening. They let your fears control them. That is not leadership. Leadership is controlling your fears while continuing to function.

I am NOT saying that games should be a free for all. I am also NOT saying that they should go un-supervised. I am saying that we need to let kids be kids and respond to the things that they do. That means, they are going to chant things, they are going to yell, they are going to get on the officials. As long they don't get personal, I think that it is part of the game atmosphere.

I know that there are always bad elements at events. The key is to get rid of the bad elements, while keeping the atmosphere. You had 17 administrators in attendance, and there was still violence (the weapon). Control is not the problem here.

Leadership is not "controling" a situation, it is creating a situation that is under control, where kids make the decision to act in an acceptable, age appropriate way.
   
The main problem goes back to leadership. We do not have leaders running our schools. We have teachers (and moreso failed teachers) that can get a masters degree in adminstration. They do not have to prove themselves in anyway other than that they can teach 5 hours a day for three years and that they can pass 45-60 credits at some graduate school. This is why our schools are failing.

You do not make rash blanket decsions on a single minor incident.

If you sprain your ankle, the trainer doesn't cut off the leg at the knee, he(she) rehabs the ankle. If everyone is spraining their ankle, you don't stop what you are doing, you address the problem.

Well, I must get to work.


   
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  Nickname: EagleFish
Posts: 538
Member Since: 7/26/05

Posted: 1/6/2006 2:21pm
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I disagree with your assessment of teachers - maybe at your school....my ex is working on masters and she is a teacher - many of her co-teachers have masters and many of those who don't are working on theirs...not to be in admin - they love the classroom....lets put the problem at the source - my take is the that problem is at the casa's and not at the school......it is simply the schools that are forced to deal with it all.....good people do bad things on occasion, but in general when you have PARENTS who do not give a tinkers damn about their kids or what they are doing (or the little Johnny is always right syndrome) that creates probs.

My knot got yanked straight at home and all it took was a phone call from escuela. It's not the good kids like Coaches girl that will cause a prob by chanting and cheering - it's some idiot fool who decides to take it out on her for what's being chanted....these days nobody can assume others will react normally - as far as the teacher issue: having kids who sleep during test, refuse to answer test questions, starting fires in b-rooms daily, stealing, lieing, vulgar language to teachers, knives guns and dope in school, constant fights are all issues that are beyond the teachers - a majority of the teachers time is spent dealing with dip***s you can't throw out of school since they can't be left behind......these kind of kids are slugs sucking up good air period - put them in with our kids and that's the problem....hands are tied....making a rule that will keep an ignorant slug from showing it affects all, but what's the alternative.

The only one I know of is politically incorrect - have a dip*** list at the gate and if you are on it you don't come into school or the event period.

   
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  Nickname: LostCoach__1
Posts: 231
Member Since: 11/27/02

Posted: 1/9/2006 5:38am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Eagle, I do not think I ever said there was anything wrong with teachers. I know the problems that they face everyday in the classroom. I was talking about leadership in our schools. By that I am referencing the administration.

I too feel that the problem starts at home. However, that is something that I do not forsee changing. Additionally, that is not something that I have any control over, so I have to "work the situation".

Your dipsh** list is used at our high school. I have a list of 10-12 kids that are not allowed at any event. But that is the point I was trying to make.

Deal with the problem by removing the problem makers on an individual basis. Do not deal with it by removing everyone.

I agree with the basketball thing DC said.   

   
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  Nickname: EagleFish
Posts: 538
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Posted: 1/9/2006 7:31am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Lostcoach,

But you did say that the prob was with teachers....
...
you said "We do not have leaders running our schools. We have teachers (and moreso failed teachers) that can get a masters degree in adminstration. They do not have to prove themselves in anyway other than that they can teach 5 hours a day for three years and that they can pass 45-60 credits at some graduate school. This is why our schools are failing."....
...

Not discounting everything else you said and not jumping on you, but that is a very strong statement to make that just isn't true.

I like the DIP list your school has been using - it goes a long way to addressing the problem and that's basically the idiot acting fools who are there for the wrong reason........as I mentioned before I SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THAT LIST for B-ball games years ago....maybe set some criteria here for list inclusion..

1.If you act like a damn fool
2.If your stupid and make horrible grades (go home and study)
3.If you have demonstrated an innate innability to reflect positively on your school (go home and learn to not be socially retarded)
4.If your Momma doesn't know what a curse word is (that's for your sitch Busman)

It doesn't take long to establish - our Little league has a rep of No tolerance - act like an idiot and your out for the year....your side our side period....i have seen it enforced swiftly...also heard an opposing fan holler something derogatory about a player - things came to a stop and everyone just looked at him - he had to feal 2 inches tall....one of their parents told this guy that don't fly hear they will kick you out and put your butt in jail for trespassing if you come back. that's all it took.



   
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  Nickname: DCohio
Posts: 1519
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Posted: 1/5/2006 6:42am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Wow!! No tailgating for football games??

Well you know how I look at that, she can just be pissed. It's the truth and if she doesn't like it, then perhaps she should do something to change it or better yet, should have done something or nothing and that would have prevented it from being the truth to begin with.

It just makes me mad for the same reasons you said Lost, the kids are at the game, they aren't out drinking and raising hell, they are at a school function.

As I said, I think they just have never been in a school with no school spirit at all. Where I teach, our kids do not go to ball games, there is no tailgating and let me see...well, we have had 2 kids in the past 10 days busted for selling drugs at school. One kid had 3.8 ounces on him and was caught weighing it and bagging it in class...yea...that's the direction we want everyone to go.

I agree 100% on the administrators, heck in some cases they haven't been in the classroom very long either. I interviewed with a guy who went straight through college to his doctorate. He spent 3 years in the classroom before he moved up to principal, 3 years there and now is a superintendant. I was in that interview for about 15 minutes before I knew I didn't want to work for him. I just said "I'm sorry for wasting your time but I don't think I want this position." and walked out. The shame is, it was a teaching interview at the school where I coach, but there was no way I wanted to work for that principal, no way. Especially since I would be leaving a Principal who is a Football guy. Played in the CFL & NFL, loves football through and through...even got ejected from the sideline during one of the home games for telling the ref he ought to be ashamed of himself over some call.

Oh well, perhaps we will all wake up one day and the world will be like the world in Demolition Man, no competition, pure utopia, a place where everyone is equal, everyone comes from the same background with the same upbringing, where everyone loves one another and everyone agrees on everything. If that happens my obituary will be in the newspaper the next day.

It's not like that everywhere, there are several schools here in ohio that are not like that. I can tell you this much, our pricipal and AD would not have said that if it had been something to do with the wrestling team. For those who don't know, where I coach football, our wrestling team is one of the best in the country (really). They are their own body, going for 6 straight state titles. Any administrator who tries to interfere with them will be unemployed shortly. I do not say that without proof, there has been more than one wrestler who has made a mistake or 2 that any other kid would have been suspended by the school...BUT that didn't happen...they allowed the wrestling coaches to discipline the kid each time. Which is more of a physical beating with parents in attendance. There has only been one pricipal who tried to do something, she now teaches 3rd grade at one of the elementary schools.

I'm interested to see what happens this friday, it's our first home game since the announcement, my son tells me that the wrestling team is going to show up and openly defy the principal, I got a paycheck that says nothing will be done.

Oh well, that's what we get when your AD is a Librarian and ex-band rat and the pricipal was a band rat too.

   
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  Nickname: GreenfieldHawks
Posts: 213
Member Since: 11/15/00

Posted: 1/5/2006 9:29am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
pretty soon they will try to eliminate scoreboards and fans will just have to watch in silence because if you cheer for one team, you might hurt the other teams' feelings.

   
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  Nickname: EagleFish
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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:12am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
SS and DC,

I am sure by now you may gather I am as competetive as anyone - even down to who can pee the farthest. I am not big into the hoopla in the bleachers/stands....the competition is on the court/field...remember though, my Imaginary Game had no crowd and no band and no little tit dressed up like a mean rabbit...some players may feed off the hoopla, but to be honest the hairs on my neck rise walking into a vacant arena rather to a full one...

   
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  Nickname: EagleFish
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:30am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Here is some food for thought...as a parent of a young kid, we go to HS sports as our entertainment....when chants start to turn negative things can turn bad....it does nothing for the team and takes away from the game. It turns into a battle between the asses parked in the bleachers and that's not what it's about...school spirit one thing, but that's nuts in my book and disrespects the purpose.

I speak from experience - In Basketball we all as Football players went for the sole purpose of rubbing our victories in the face of the other schools....we had shirts made up dogging their football teams and listing scores....i was young and missed the picture - that did nothing to help out those kids working their butt's off on the Court - we cared less about the b-ball score.

And yes they responded every-year and fights happened, which is what we went there for (stupid I know, but factual)...the last was a large group gathering at a park - being a hero I threw a tire iron at the feet of their loud mouth - telling him it was about to be on and he needed it.....it was about that time a priest stepped in from nowhere and snatched me up by the neck....point is that was stupid then and stupid now....if the purpose is to cheer your team then great - if not don't show up......young emotions run high - very high - we stress being competitive all the time and must show how to do it right....sorry to dissent on this, but our town had a Freshman involved in a fight across the street from the stadium over some loud talking crap - no guns, no knives just fist to fist.....some a-hole runs in and blind sides him with an ear shot - this kid falls hits his head on pavement....two days later they pull the plug. All over this same kind of garbage......a FRESHMAN KID DEAD....a non athlete standing up for his school the wrong way.

Doesn't sound like a big deal to ask the kids to not wear anything deragatory or say anything of the like......I don't get not being able to wear B-ball's as hats though?

There are plenty of kids out there who may carry competition too far off the field as I did...the stories go on and get worse but hopefully you get the point....the body painting and all that is fine if they are into it, but like anything there is a line.



   
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  Nickname: calande
Posts: 435
Member Since: 2/22/03

Posted: 1/6/2006 5:12am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I know of a school that had similar chanting back and forth at a basketball game...i think it was football players and wrestlers mostly from one school chanting and talking trash back and forth to the same from the other...anyhow, it didnt end pretty...big fight in the parking lot including some kid getting beaten with a bat...from what i heard 3 or 4 kids actually held him up on his feet so a few more kids could take cracks at him...i honestly dont think any of the football players were booted off the team or anything like that...not really sure. some kids take things too far...they are just thugs looking for a reason...some dont even need a reason.

   
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  Nickname: CoachGuy__2
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:09pm
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
In my high school in Florida, back in the big hair days of the 1980's, some unhappy fans where we won on their turf decided to rock the team bus to taunt us. One of the D-lineman was sick of it, and opened the window to mouth off. In half a second, he got whipped in the face with a big old redneck belt buckle.

He's now blind in that now paralyzed eye, with a nasty scar down his face to match.

Why was it so heated? Because our fans were taunting theirs, all in "good nature."

His family sued both schools for failure to control the situation, and won a fair prize from both.

So before you tag all administrators as being out of touch, understand that the lawyers love these cases because they are huge paydays. Someone's got to make decisions to limit risk, both physically and financially. Sometimes they are too cautious, while other times, their hands are forced by insurers. Self insured towns are notoriously tight with risk assessment, since one or two really vocal townies can sway policy.

--- Coach Guy


   
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  Nickname: DCohio
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Posted: 1/7/2006 6:43am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Personally I don't see what everyone gets so emotional about...it's just basketball for Christ's sake.

   
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  Nickname: Kakavian
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Posted: 1/7/2006 10:00am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
C'mon, DC, dont you get it? Basketball is like soccer, the game is so boring for those not playing it that the fans need to do SOMETHING until the final two minutes when the game actually matters! So...they start fights, riots, tear up the town stuff like that to keep themselves busy and distract from the fact that not only is their sport boring except for the last two minutes, but to distract from the fact that in a boring sport, their TEAM is boring. Granted...that's just my opinion. Of course, baseball is pretty boring too, but usually the fans are too couchpotatoed to actually care enough to fight.

   
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  Nickname: busman__1
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Posted: 1/9/2006 7:00am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
1. We've got a problem. We all know it. We all have our horror stories. Things have changed. And we have to change with it.

2. Sure, the ultimately respopnsibility lies with parents to teach their kids right and wrong from birth. But what do we do when they don't? I'll never forget being in a meeting with a parent whose daughter had been suspended for fighting and cursing a teacher. The Mom asked the principal "What did she say?". The student said "F... Y.., Coach B." The Mom said "See, I told you she didn't curse."

3. I think we see more and more events being moved to daylight hours, even though parents and community can't attend, to try and cut down on violence. I certainly can see where that can gut community spirit.

4. After 23 years in a classroom, my wife spent 4 as a building administrator. She is now a Central office administrator. She misses the building, the activity, the faculty and the kids. She doesn't miss the parents.

[ Modified 1/9/2006 11:34am by busman__1 ]

   
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  Nickname: tkerch
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Posted: 1/9/2006 11:51am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
bus,
I am confused how moving games to early afternoon will cut down on violence? if there are fewer parents, therefore, fewer adult figures, doesn't that leave more un-supervised students to cause havock?

I think that the more adults are in attendance that the kids will feel more obligated to act like civilized humans, instead of little bastards. I realized as soon as i typed this that i made the assumption that the kids have some moral intuition, but don't you feel most kids will act better if they are surrounded by adults?



   
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  Nickname: busman__1
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Posted: 1/10/2006 6:02am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Keep in mind we are an urban area.

What we've found is our trouble is often not our kids or adults, but those 18-22 year-olds that hang around and like to cause troube. the presence of a lot of adults does not seem to discourage them from their activities. For whatever reasons, they don't like daylight and tend to either stay away or don't stir up trouble in the sunshine.

   
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  Nickname: DCohio
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Posted: 1/10/2006 7:41am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Maybe they are vampires and you could keep them away from the game if you put crosses around the field.



   
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  Nickname: busman__1
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Posted: 1/10/2006 8:15am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Right DC. Then we'd get the ACLU on us for promoting religion. Then the Klan (yes, this is still the South) would start burning one of them and the Fire Marshall would be on us. And on and on and on.

If you ever saw "War Games" in the 1980's with Matthew Broderick, Ally Sheedy, and Dabney Coleman the computer plays a simulated game of Tic Tac Toe. After a while, it finally gives up and says "Silly game. Nobody wins." That's kind of how we school people feel sometimes, isn't it?

   
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  Nickname: DCohio
Posts: 1519
Member Since: 3/07/00

Posted: 1/10/2006 7:45am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
Don't get me wrong, I like to play basketball and baseball for that matter. But I can't take watching it very long at all.

I shouldn't say that because my brother is a head basketball coach and my dad is a head baseball coach but man...baseball is 9 man stand around if you have a good pitcher, and basketball is alright for a while but only for a little while...unless it's March Madness and I am at BW3's or Fricker's with a steady beer supply. But even then me and my friends are shooting the bull about football.

   
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  Nickname: EagleFish
Posts: 538
Member Since: 7/26/05

Posted: 1/10/2006 8:14am
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  Re: I've got an administrative complaint to air  
I am with ya DC on that for sure...to me they both are a player appreciation sport - meaning play to appreciate and since I was horrible at both - well there ya go.

I watch baseball if I play or my boy plays.....did follow the Stros though - since my boy doesn't play b-ball it's def just something to turn on. I guess all have prefs, but there is no comparing to football for us anyway.....we go watch HS football regardless of knowing anyone assoc with team - - just pull up the scheds and pick the game that sounds like best matchup and we are there = pick our team, pick up nachos and we are ready to rock.

Just don't see that happening much at the baseball and basketball games (maybe I am worobng



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