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Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???
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  Nickname: laguna_brewers
Posts: 467
Member Since: 2/24/08

Posted: 10/27/2010 9:39am
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Replies: 3
  Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Before this quickly degenerates into a bashing contest of my partner, I will say that we talked after the game about this situation and everything got resolved from an on-the-field perspective. What I'm looking for is some other perspectives of how it could have been handled, if there really is a different outcome possible.

Now my story. LL Minors (why do the weirdest plays ALWAYS happen in Minors), 1 out, R2 and R3. BR hits a fly to CF, R2 "successfully" tags up on the catch and tries to advance, but a brain-dead coach is not giving R3 any advice, so he is just standing on the base. {That part is important}. I'm BU, in C, and on the fly ball, PU has "Catch-No Catch". Catch is made, and R2 breaks for 3rd. I repeat the "Catch" call for out #2, and move between 2nd and 3rd to see where the play is going to take me. Half-way to 3rd, R2 decides to retreat back to 2B, because 3rd is still occupied.

From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him, where F4 catches it and steps on the base [but R2 had successfully tagged up, so there needs to be a tag]. On the catch, PU barks out, "That's 3", and the defense begins to bolt off the field. To my surprise, the PU poached what should have been my call. As the players are leaving the field, the brain-dead 3rd base coach decides to wake up and tells his players to keep running (and rightly so). PU insisted again that "That's 3", so now I'm hung out to dry when the coach is asking me to overrule him.........

I simply pointed to the PU and told the coach that the call was made, and the PU is the only one who can change it. I didn't know what else to tell him.

Can that bell be unrung? I would not imagine so, even with the blown call that wasn't his to begin with.

   
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  Nickname: Rich_Ives

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Member Since: 7/27/00

Posted: 10/27/2010 9:51am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
So PU is standing at the plate, looking at CF, and doesn't see R2 and 2B?

Hmmmmm.

Things lie this happen in minors because neither the players or coaches (and some of the umpires) have much experience.

One way "out of it is for you to let the PU know you have info for him. If he then accepts the info, he can reverse the call and probably place the runners back on 2B and 3B.

Another way (not recommended) is to make the opposite call and thus force a discussion.

   
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  Nickname: Pete_Booth
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Member Since: 4/24/00

Posted: 10/27/2010 10:25am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
why do the weirdest plays ALWAYS happen in Minors

Because in general the coaches and some umpires have NO CLUE on what they are doing. Also, at these games you typically get the less experienced umpires. I am not saying you are inexperienced but it appears your partner was.

In order to answer properly IMO, we need to know the age of the PU. However, here goes

From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him, where F4 catches it and steps on the base [but R2 had successfully tagged up, so there needs to be a tag]. On the catch, PU barks out, "That's 3",

Who cares what the PU thought. That call is NOT the PU's so he should keep quiet UNLESS asked by his partner. However, he MADE a call and the particpants reacted.

PU insisted again that "That's 3", so now I'm hung out to dry when the coach is asking me to overrule him.


You are NOT hung out to dry when the coach asks you to over-rule your partner.

Example: assume myself and Rich Ives are doing the game (heaven forbid - just kidding Rich)

I am the BU and Rich was the PU and now the coach comes to me and says:

"Pete can you over-rule Rich. The runner needed to be tagged."


Me: "Skip go talk to Rich"

End of MY discussion with the coach.

If Rich wants my help he can ON HIS OWN ask for my input BUT the point is you simply direct the coach to the umpire who made the call even if it was YOUR call but another umpire made it.

It's NOT throwing your partner under the bus but observing Umpire protocol.

If the coach protests then you GET involved because it's umpire protocol to get the ruling correct.

If Rich did come to me and said "Pete my bad that's your call - what happened" I explain what happened and we simply fix by putting back R2/R3 on their respective bases with 2 outs and continue.


If your partner was adament and INSISTED his call was correct then the coach needs to do his job and protest the ruling. Then as mentioned above you can NOW interject and get the call right.

After the game you have a chat and explain "the deal"

Pete Booth

[ Modified 10/27/2010 10:31am by Pete_Booth ]

   
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  Nickname: laguna_brewers
Posts: 467
Member Since: 2/24/08

Posted: 10/27/2010 11:40am
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Replies: 1
  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Pete, you pretty much nailed it!

Me: "Skip go talk to Rich"

End of MY discussion with the coach.


I simply pointed the coach in the direction of the PU and said it was his call, and walked away.

The PU was a guy with a fair bit of experience, and after the game when we discussed it, he knew he booted the call. But since the coach didn't come for an explanation (and it was a Minor Fall Ball game...... stuff happens!), it went by the wayside.

I feel I handled it correctly, but was just looking for other takes on a really weird play-of-the-day in Minors.

   
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  Nickname: Manny_A

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Posted: 11/1/2010 1:58pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I simply pointed the coach in the direction of the PU and said it was his call, and walked away.

Apologies for being late to this party, but after reading the whole thread, I had to come back to this statement by laguna and offer my dos centavos.

I personally wouldn't have just pointed the coach in my partner's direction, said, "It's his call," and walked away. I would've highly encouraged him to go talk to my partner. I would hope something like, "Coach, I really can't help you here because it was my partner's call. You need to go to him and ask him why he made that call," would do the trick. Then, I would stand there looking at my partner with our pre-arranged "Come to me for help" signal (hands in my pockets while on the bases, mask behind my back while on the plate).

If I really feel there was a grievous injustice done (and in my mind, my partner taking away my call and then blowing it to boot is pretty danged grievous), I would've tried to get it fixed without making it look like I'm overruling my partner.

   
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  Nickname: rp_umpire
Posts: 69
Member Since: 1/27/06

Posted: 10/28/2010 6:42am
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Replies: 2
  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
"If your partner was adament and INSISTED his call was correct then the coach needs to do his job and protest the ruling."

OK, Pete, here's the million dollar question. What rule is being misapplied? An umpire making a wrong judgment on a call that isn't even his is still not a misapplication of any rule.

[ Modified 10/28/2010 6:43am by rp_umpire ]

   
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  Nickname: HugoTafurst

Posts: 5229
Member Since: 4/23/00

Posted: 10/28/2010 7:38am
Views:   969
Replies: 2
  Happy  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
here's the million dollar question. What rule is being misapplied?

PU mistakenly applied the ruling for an appeal out (tag the base, not the player while off the base).

If you read Laguna's post (10/27/2010 11:40am, you will see that PU knew he misapplied the rule.
"after the game when we discussed it, he knew he booted the call"

Send an email to me at rsgfl@aim.com..... I'll give you my Swiss bank account number to deposit the million $$$.

Sorry Pete, you snooze, you loose.....

   
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  Nickname: Mr_Umpire
Posts: 40
Member Since: 3/11/10

Posted: 10/28/2010 1:43pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Not if he judged the runner left early. Then, no rule was misapplied. Only misjudged. No protest to be made regardless of how bad it was.

   
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  Nickname: rp_umpire
Posts: 69
Member Since: 1/27/06

Posted: 10/28/2010 2:26pm
Views:   939
Replies: 1
  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
PU mistakenly applied the ruling for an appeal out (tag the base, not the player while off the base).

If you read Laguna's post (10/27/2010 11:40am, you will see that PU knew he misapplied the rule.
"after the game when we discussed it, he knew he booted the call"

Send an email to me at rsgfl@aim.com..... I'll give you my Swiss bank account number to deposit the million $$$.

Sorry Pete, you snooze, you loose.....


Hugo, when the umpire admitted he "booted" the call, I took that to mean he believes the runner didn't tag up. The wording of the original post seems to back that up.

Therefore, it remains in the realm of judgment, albeit bad judgment.

So, alas, no million for you!

   
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  Nickname: HugoTafurst

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Posted: 10/28/2010 3:23pm
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  Sad  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
We read it differently - I guess only Laguna has the answer as to whether the boot was the rule or the judgement- or now that I think about it, maybe even the fact that he made booted it meaning that he made a call that wasn't his......

So, alas, no million for you!
Damn, I could have used that money, too - just had to replace a starter in my car and purchase some high priced orthotics for my plate and base shoes......
;-(


   
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  Nickname: Pete_Booth
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Posted: 10/29/2010 8:01am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
OK, Pete, here's the million dollar question. What rule is being misapplied?


from the OP

From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up, and the ball comes back into 2B ahead of him, where F4 catches it and steps on the base
but R2 had successfully tagged up, so there needs to be a tag].


Pretty straight forward

1. B1 did NOT become a runner so there was no force play.

2. R2 tagged properly so he needs to be tagged in order for the defense to get the out.

A RULE was MISSAPPLIED - plain and Simple

This was NOT about judgement.

Hugo when you get the money make certain you give me my "cut" or Uncle Vinny will be paying you a visit.

Pete Booth

   
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  Nickname: laguna_brewers
Posts: 467
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Posted: 10/29/2010 8:32am
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  Happy  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
If anybody is getting a cut of the cash$$$, it had better be ME!!

The "boot" was a little of both, in terms of what he thought he saw, and what the proper responsibility was. In our conversation about that play, he said that his focus was on the catch first, and then when he looked and saw R2 retreating, he just figured that the runner had left early and was liable to be put out on the appeal/tag of the base. Mind you, R2 was more than 1/2 to 3rd when the return began, so without seeing the proper tag up, it would have looked like he thought. Now the second boot was him admitting that the call was poached, and it should have been the BU call on whether the tag-up was executed properly, and if there was any tag of R2, it was not his call.

Interestingly, my quick conversation with the coach and telling him to go speak to my partner went unheeded, so it was simply dropped. No chance for the Protest, but more likely the outcome would have been to place R2 and R3 back, and continue with 2 outs, but the coach just walked into the dugout, and accepted the call.

   
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  Nickname: HugoTafurst

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Posted: 10/30/2010 5:04am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Naturally, you're in...

I'll meet you and Pete somewhere and will split the loot (whatever is left after legal fees, travel expense and alcohol)

   
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  Nickname: HugoTafurst

Posts: 5229
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Posted: 10/30/2010 5:00am
Views:   854
Replies: 1
  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Hugo when you get the money make certain you give me my "cut" or Uncle Vinny will be paying you a visit.

Of course ;-)



   
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  Nickname: rp_umpire
Posts: 69
Member Since: 1/27/06

Posted: 10/30/2010 12:50pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
There'll be no loot forthcoming.....

From the original post: From the PU's look, he figures that R2 is returning to touch up...

That means this call was and remains nothing more than a judgment call, albeit a bad one. There is no rule being misapplied -- the call resulted from the PU's mistaken belief that the runner never returned to tag.

   
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  Nickname: ROUNDING_3RD
Posts: 66
Member Since: 6/06/08

Posted: 10/27/2010 5:04pm
Views:   1020
Replies: 1
  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
That isnt one of those "lets get the call right because it is the right thing to do" that is discussed so frequently on the board
(unless it might cause embarassment to an umpire)is it?

   
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  Nickname: bobjenkins
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Posted: 10/28/2010 5:50am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I'd find a way to talk to PU, find out what he had and make it right.

Maybe he has it as you do -- he assumed R2 left early: Put R2 back and play on.

Maybe he has it as you, but R2 would have been out on the tag while returning: Keep the call

Maybe he had a different judgment from you -- he saw R2 leave just early: Keep the call (even if it wasn't his)



   
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  Nickname: Kyle_
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Posted: 10/29/2010 8:41am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I'm not a "get the call right" umpire, but a "get the procedure right" guy.

Manager to PU: I'm wondering why you called my runner out.

PU: He didn't tag up.

Manager: I'm pretty sure he was standing on the bag as the catch was made. Would you mind asking your partner for help?

THAT'S what should have happened.

You did the right thing be deferring to your partner. The manager just needed to do his job. Let him know the next time you see him, and everyone gets a little bit smarter in your league. And that's what it's all about in LL, right?

[ Modified 10/29/2010 9:08am by Kyle_ ]

   
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  Nickname: laguna_brewers
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Posted: 10/29/2010 8:58am
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
The manager just needed to do his job. Let him know the next time you see him

I did just that after the game was over. I explained that I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, but it is up to him to ask for further clarification as to why the PU had an out on that play. He thanked me for the tid-bit of information on how things work on the field, and yea, it was a fairly green manager (Minors... enough said).

   
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  Nickname: Kyle_
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Posted: 10/29/2010 9:07am
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  ThumbsUp  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Perfect!

   
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  Nickname: Pete_Booth
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Posted: 10/29/2010 12:06pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I did just that after the game was over. I explained that I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, but it is up to him to ask for further clarification as to why the PU had an out on that play. He thanked me for the tid-bit of information on how things work on the field,

I realize this is LL Minors and I STRONGLY disagree with both you and Kyle. You should NOT be talking / explaining things to a coach after the game. When the game is OVER you greet your partner and head for the car as a TANDUM NOT hang around and talk to a coach.

The person you want to make a little bit smarter is YOUR partner. That's whom you talk to after the game NOT the coach.

In a way you gave the coach "amunition" and threw your partner under the bus especially when he officiates his next game.

This is what you said

"I explained that I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, but it is up to him to ask for further clarification as to why the PU had an out on that play".

My question Why are you explaining this to a coach?

Translation: Coach my partner screwed up. Next time ask him to get help or protest.

Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant because the aforementioned is what you just told the coach whether you meant to or not.

In a nusthell DO NOT talk to coaches after the game. This is mainly a "LL thing" as you do not see this in other forms of baseball. As you move up I STRONGLY recommend that you break yourself of this habit because other officials will not take 'to kindly" seeing you hanging around discussing the game with a coach.

As mentioned when the game is OVER greet your partner and head to the car TOGETHER. There you have a POST game with your partner so that YOUR partner gets educated for his next game NOT the other way around.

The "coaches word" (and FWIW I have seen it happen time and time again) will get around.

Coaches Word / talk:

"Hey Bill I see you have Joe for your next game. He hasn't got a clue what's going on. His PARTNER in "not so many words" told me so. Make certain you stay "on him" all game long and make sure he gets help".

Pete Booth



   
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  Nickname: Kyle_
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Posted: 10/29/2010 3:31pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I don't take a them vs. us attitude when I umpire at the local LL level. My goal is to get the whole program better, not just the umpires. If I can make a manager smarter, more rules savvy, and a better coach, I'll take that opportunity. I'm a league official, who happens to be an umpire. That's all.

And maybe that's not possible in all areas. Maybe my league is different, but that's how we roll. I don't head for the parking lot after games. I'll usually be raking the field, cleaning the umpire room, or emptying trash cans. If someone wants to ask me a question after the game, no problem. If I see something that can help a kid (pitching motion, batting stance) I'll say something to the coach. If there's a procedural issue I can clear up, I'll do it. At our park we work together, not against each other.

And I think it's been working. In the ten years we've gone from paid to volunteer umpires, the relationship has changed, and the success of the league has progressed immensely. We've dominated the surrounding leagues, been to Williamsport and won state titles.

But, again, this is local level LL. I don't do this with travel, etc. That's not proper. But working with coaches to elevate the play in the league CAN work, if done properly. Our league is an example of it.



   
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  Nickname: TheMouth__1
Posts: 524
Member Since: 8/20/02

Posted: 10/29/2010 5:21pm
Views:   862
Replies: 1
  Happy  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
Kyle, I think your approach is a very good one when it comes to LL.   But Pete is correct, as you matriculate to the older players, it is not a good practice. I have coached a lot and can attest to the fact that coaches will bad mouth umpires to other coaches that they consider weak or can be swayed. TM

   
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  Nickname: Kyle_
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Posted: 10/29/2010 5:53pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
I've done older players, trust me, and I know the difference. The OP was talking about LL minors, and working with coaches at the level is beneficial, thus my reply.

Again, this may not work with many locals. The "RUN FOR THE CARS, I'VE GOT YOU COVERED!" attitude prevails in many locals. I've seen it. Coaches are idiots, as are the umpires. They don't get what LL is all about (Hint: It's not baseball). Too many folks taking this game far too seriously, and forgetting that it's little kids, playing baseball. If I've got to head for the hills after a game, something is wrong with the whole situation. If I can handle my business for 2-3 hours on the field, why would I be afraid afterwords? It makes no sense.

And I fully understand that if you've never worked in a league like mine that you wouldn't understand it. That's cool. Just know they're out there.

   
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  Nickname: laguna_brewers
Posts: 467
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Posted: 11/1/2010 6:45am
Views:   832
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
"I explained that I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, but it is up to him to ask for further clarification as to why the PU had an out on that play".

My question Why are you explaining this to a coach?

Ummmm, because it's a Rule and my job is to enforce the Rules.

This wasn't AAA in the Pro's, and some of these "Managers = Coaches" in the lowest levels of LL are not too bright when it comes to the Rules. ESPECIALLY in Fall Ball, where Daddy Coach is moving up from T-Ball. If I can educate these guys, by all means I will do it. I can see your point about loitering after a game, and I practice those same codes when I'm at a different park (again, doing LL games), but this particular situation took place in my League, where I have been either a Coach, Board Member, or volunteer Ump for the past 10 years. Of course I'm going to see that things continue to run for the best in my League, and I'm certainly not "running for the hills" after each game.

   
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  Nickname: Pete_Booth
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Posted: 11/1/2010 12:22pm
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  Re: Poached Call - Can You Unring the Bell???  
My question Why are you explaining this to a coach?

Ummmm, because it's a Rule and my job is to enforce the Rules.

The game was OVER.

from your response above

I did just that after the game was over. I explained that I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, but it is up to him to ask for further clarification as to why the PU had an out on that play.

Tell me EXACTLY where that's covered in the rules?

As soon as you said I could not just overrule the Ump making the call, meant that the PU screwed up.

If that's accepted where you work then as the saying goes "Do as the Romans do"

In my area, it would NOT be tolerated and you would get a reputation for throwing your partner under the bus.

if you have a problem with your partner then talk to YOUR partner NOT the coach.


Pete Booth

[ Modified 11/1/2010 12:25pm by Pete_Booth ]

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