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Nickname:
Frank_B
Posts: 6567
Member Since: 12/16/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:58am
Views: 325
Replies: 1
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Something else to ponder
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It was mentioned to me that at the recent ER clinic the subject of LL Tournament Pool-Play might well be eliminated.....going (only) with double elimination.
Anybone else hear this??
Edit to correct what I thought I had allready corrected.
Frank!
[ Modified 11/6/2009 9:49am by Frank_B ]
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Nickname:
Rich_Ives
Posts: 10592
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:18am
Views: 314
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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Why? So the kids get to play fewer games? They went to pool play to get more games, why cut back?
Our district went to pool play to get more games for the kids. We wouldn't want to go back.
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Nickname:
Atlanta_Blue
Posts: 11415
Member Since: 4/24/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:47am
Views: 278
Replies: 2
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Re: Something else to ponder
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If you are intersted in more games for the kids, then extend the regular season and get more games for ALL the kids, not just All Stars.
The problem with pool play is not the number of games, it's the tie breaker system. It can cause things to happen that aren't (or shouldn't be) part of the game.
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Nickname:
Rich_Ives
Posts: 10592
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 10:05am
Views: 268
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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If you are intersted in more games for the kids, then extend the regular season and get more games for ALL the kids, not just All Stars.
Build us a dome and we will.
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 10:58am
Views: 256
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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There is no honest way to eliminate the tiebreaker system (short of actually changing it). But, one way to try to limit the number of times its used is to make everyone in a pool play everyone else in the pool once.
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Nickname:
davemk
Posts: 43
Member Since: 12/09/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:05am
Views: 255
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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How would ESPN televise the regional finals if an if needed game is needed?
My district covers 10.000 square miles. Pool play has been a godsend as teams know when they will play all thier games. I made trips of 146,196, 140, 173, 145 and 108 miles to umpres in districts. It makes it easy when you know when games will be played to get time off of work.
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Nickname:
GrasshopperMIB
Posts: 3205
Member Since: 12/31/01
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:28am
Views: 256
Replies: 3
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Re: Something else to ponder
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Mr. davemk,
I made trips of 146,196, 140, 173, 145 and 108 miles to umpres in districts. It makes it easy when you know when games will be played to get time off of work.
1. Why wouldn't you know when your assigned games were scheduled to be played under Pool Play, Single Elimination, or Double Elimination? :o)
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:31am
Views: 253
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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That would depend on how the games are assigned. Some may wait to see who gets in the later games so as to avoid any conflicts. Others may use a pool of umpires and will wait to see how the umpires do during the tournament so they can reward those that do well.
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Nickname:
Rich_Ives
Posts: 10592
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:13pm
Views: 237
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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When is easy.
Under pool play where is predetermined.
Under elimination where is a floating target.
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Nickname:
BlueBeak
Posts: 326
Member Since: 11/26/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:43pm
Views: 233
Replies: 2
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Re: Something else to ponder
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Why wouldn't you know when your assigned games were scheduled to be played under Pool Play, Single Elimination, or Double Elimination?
As R.I. has said: Under elimination "where" is a floating target.
Our district has used double elimination in the past, but next year will go with pool play. In D.E. (for example) if Wednesday's game gets rained out, most everything downstream gets pushed out. The team that would have lost would have gone to the "losers" bracket, so the scheduling would be predicated on who won, who lost, so what's next(?). Can't tell.
[ Modified 11/6/2009 1:39pm by BlueBeak ]
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Nickname:
davemk
Posts: 43
Member Since: 12/09/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 4:48pm
Views: 217
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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Grasshopper, as Bluebeak and RI have said the when and where could be floating targets in DE. In the pool part of pool play we schedule a rain day. In the elimnation part we also schedule rain dates. That is hard to do with DE. I knew of one coach that took the tournament schedule to his boss and said these are the days I need off. That is something you cannot do in DE.
We have few fields with lights, and like RI no domes. Do you schedule the championship game at 4, the if needed at 6:30 if you can play DHs at a given level. If you schedule at 4 how many parents have to scramble to get time off. We only had one final when the teams were closer than 70 miles apart, three at 140.
Pool play for us makes since, and I hope LL doesn't take it away. Yes at times the tie breaker doesn'y make since, once we had a team eliminated on the tie breaker because it won a five inning mercy game. If they would have played the sixth inning, the pitcher threw a no-hitter, they would have advanced on the innings/run rule. Such is life. I would hope the suits on the hill don't come up with some knee jerk reaction to an event that happened and penalize all leagues.
[ Modified 11/6/2009 4:49pm by davemk ]
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Nickname:
Mason_Dixon_Blue
Posts: 3613
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/8/2009 2:54pm
Views: 127
Replies: 2
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Re: Something else to ponder
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As R.I. has said: Under elimination "where" is a floating target.
We use a combination of pool play and double elimination.
Some divisions are pool play and some divisions are double elimination.
"Where" is NEVER a floating target.
One site is used for the entire pool or for the entire bracket, regardless of who is playing. We always know when and where the game is being played. We just don't always know who is playing.
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16613
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/9/2009 5:06am
Views: 112
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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One site is used for the entire pool or for the entire bracket, regardless of who is playing. We always know when and where the game is being played. We just don't always know who is playing.
We do the same in our districts. Each year, our leagues volunteer to host the district tournaments for each division. Usually, one league gets one tournament (League A hosts 9-10, League B hosts 10-11, etc. etc.); other times, a league may get more than one. One year, we had one league host all district tourneys, which made it convenient for district staff who served as TDs and for parents who had kids playing in different divisions.
To me, this makes much more sense than giving teams the home-field advantage by playing games at their league sites depending on the outcome of games, and having everyone bouncing all over the district map day in and day out. For us, everyone knows where to go for all of their games. And the host leagues know they'll be on the hook to provide volunteers to do field prep, set up and run the concession stand, keep score and announce, etc. It turns into a pretty good money-maker for those leagues, which is why we never have any trouble getting them to sign up to host tournaments.
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Nickname:
BlueBeak
Posts: 326
Member Since: 11/26/02
Posted: 11/9/2009 10:15am
Views: 94
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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We use a combination of pool play and double elimination.
Some divisions are pool play and some divisions are double elimination.
"Where" is NEVER a floating target.
"Where" is dependent for the district in which I do my main body of work. They use 20 different venues. If there are rainouts, then games get pushed, so the where changes as the schedule changes.
I don't make the schedule, I just go where I'm needed.
[ Modified 11/9/2009 10:18am by BlueBeak ]
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Nickname:
Lou_B
Posts: 13828
Member Since: 4/30/02
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:32pm
Views: 206
Replies: 2
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Re: Something else to ponder
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Why wouldn't you know when your assigned games were scheduled to be played under Pool Play, Single Elimination, or Double Elimination?
We don't put Umpires on games that involve teams from their leagues.
So, with Pool Play, you know who is playing who so it's easy to assign the Umpires ahead of time.
With single or double elimination it's very difficult to assign Umpires past the first round since you don't know who is going to be playing which games.
Pool Play is "much easier" for assigning Umpires (IMO) - see the example below.
Example (4 Teams):
Pool Play
Game 1 League A vs League B – Umpires from League C
Game 2 League C vs League D – Umpires from League A
Game 3 League A vs League C – Umpires from League B
Game 4 League B vs League D – Umpires from League A
Game 5 League A vs League D – Umpires from League C
Game 6 League B vs League C – Umpires from League D
Double Elimination
Game 1 League A vs League B – Umpires from League C
Game 2 League C vs League D – Umpires from League A
Game 3 Winner of Game 1 vs Winner of Game 2 – Umpires from ???
Game 4 Loser of Game 1 vs Loser of Game 2 – Umpires from ???
Game 5 Winner of Game 4 vs Loser of Game 3 – Umpires from ???
Game 6 Winner of Game 3 vs Winner of Game 5 – Umpires from ???
Game 7 (if) Same teams as Game 6 – Umpires from ???
[ Modified 11/6/2009 5:48pm by Lou_B ]
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:40pm
Views: 205
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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This is just another case of LLHQ considering a blanket move without considering individual needs.
For the past 4 years, our district (8 teams) has played double elim. I mentioned to the DA last year - hey, why don't we go to pool play - you could guarantee every team 4 games (3 pool play then move to single elimination). He's considering it. Yes, we are fortunate to live in a fair weather climate and rain outs are a near impossibility - but this year we could've started play as early as 6/29 and didn't play our first game until 7/6 - and then advancing teams had almost a week off before section play!
As many have pointed out - "what to do" has to do with each leagues particulars, i.e. available fields, lights, weather, number of teams. District generally have up to 20 days to complete District play. I want the kids who have worked their tails of for 2-3 weeks of practice to get more games. Even the region and LLWS uses pool play moving to single elim. The feedback has always been, the kids love to play the games.
More baseball - not less!
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Nickname:
HugoTafurst
Posts: 4554
Member Since: 4/23/00
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:17am
Views: 184
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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This is just another case of LLHQ considering a blanket move without considering individual needs
And this is just another case of internet discussion board contributors getting all excited about a word of mouth statement without knowing the facts.
As far as I know, LLHQ has not made a decision, in fact, it is just "mentioned" that they "may" be consdidering it..
Maybe LLHQ is considering exactly the pros and cons similar to those being discussed here.
OP: It was mentioned to me that at the recent ER clinic the subject of LL Tournament Pool-Play might well be eliminated.....going (only) with double elimination.
This is just as ridiculous as 96 responses to another "I heard...." post recently.
signed
Who says this is not a Little league board
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Nickname:
BlueBeak
Posts: 326
Member Since: 11/26/02
Posted: 11/7/2009 6:12am
Views: 178
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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And this is just another case of internet discussion board contributors getting all excited about a word of mouth statement without knowing the facts.
I don't remember getting all excited, but let me go check my personal linens to be sure.
I do remember answering a pointed question. I also remember most others simply answering a question or bandying around ideas.
It seems that maybe an old curmudgeon doesn't like this and has made more of it than it actually is. JMO
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16613
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:38am
Views: 184
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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You could easily remedy that by mixing your umpire crews instead of using crews from one league. It would require a little more work for the TD and/or District UIC to schedule umpires individually for each game, or to set up standing crews to work the tournament.
Not that I'm all for going back to double elimination for tournament play. It does allow kids more games under tournament conditions. But there are drawbacks, as some have pointed out. The tie-breaker system is only one issue.
We've had problems in our district with weak leagues no longer providing teams. In the past under double-elimination, every league in our district would field tournament teams that would take their "two and BBQ" experience with little angst. But when we went to round robin play, the weaker leagues started experiencing 0-4 and 0-5 records year after year. The kids quickly lost interest as the tournaments dragged on for them, and the scores and quality of play quickly became lopsided. Board members and parents became just as demoralized as their kids. Those leagues simply quit participating in the tournaments altogether.
There was a second effect with that. As leagues stopped sending teams to the tournament, they also stopped providing umpires. They essentially folded up on June 15th and quit doing anything. District staff couldn't depend on those leagues to provide any kind of support during the tournaments.
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Nickname:
dtpoet
Posts: 306
Member Since: 3/17/02
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:00pm
Views: 155
Replies: 1
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Re: Something else to ponder
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District 20 of NJ. We usually have about 15 teams in our 12s. WE are spread out all over the the northwestern part of the state.
DE game is played on Tuesday. Loser plays Wednesday at the Loser of another game played the same day. Said game does not get over until 10. Now at 10ish at night, the coach has to scramble to find out where his/her team is playing the very next day. In all likelihood, he/she will be calling his parents either (a) around midnight or (b) the next morning.
On top of that, the UIC for the district can't schedule umpire for Wednesday until Tuesday games have reached a conclusion. Therefore, the UIC is now notifying his umpires either (a) at midnight or (b) the next morning.
Chaos!
Sure double elimination is nice for a district that utilizies very few fields. However, it is a nightmare for a district that is vastly spread out and utilizes 15 fields for its 15 teams.
In a nutshell, it makes the expereience very chaotic for everyone. Now come next year, how many parents are going to choose another summer activity for their child?
We do pool play in our district. It is wonderful. The kids get to play 4 - 7 games. Then some move on to DE and play more. Everything is planned out. Everyone knows where they need to go for the next game. Even when we get to DE, because a majority of the teams have been eliminated, we pre-schedule fields. The UIC knows where to send his umpires. The teams know where they have to go, win or lose. The leagues know which games they need to find TDs for. It's a win-win-win situation.
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16613
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/8/2009 6:39am
Views: 142
Replies: 0
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Re: Something else to ponder
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So, what did you do back in the day when there was no such thing as pool play? Remember, pool play hasn't been around that long. I'm sure those late night or early morning calls took place back then. I'm guessing everyone involved simply got ready for them.
There are pros and cons with both systems. While it sux for a team to lose two games and be done in a matter of a couple of days, it does minimize the impact on rest-of-the-world schedules.
Case in point: A team has a five-game minimum under pool play. They lose the first three games and are pretty much done for the year. But they still have two more games to go. That calls for more practice sessions and more travel to the game sites. If the tourney level is higher than district, it may call for more time staying at a hotel and eating crappy fast food. It also means more time away from work for the parents.
From a personal standpoint, I much prefer quick tournaments. My district tournaments span more than two weeks; that's a lot of evenings and weekends where, as district UIC and one of the TDs, I'm busting out of my Pentagon cubicle or leaving my family at home to work games or sit in the scorer's booth. I'm also changing umpire schedules and putting crews together for the last bracket portion of the tourneys. It can be painful at times.
All that said, I have a really hard time believing LL would revert back to DE. They make too much money showing 32 games on ESPN and ABC during the LLWS, plus all the other games at Regionals and other divisions.
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More dubious advice Part 2
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