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Nickname:
CTMike
Posts: 465
Member Since: 11/03/04
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:21am
Views: 913
Replies: 8
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New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I heard through my DA, who attended the East Region DA Clinic, that LL will be requiring all youth umpires to be 16 or older, and that all games must have at least one adult (18 or older) umpire. This would apply to all levels of play for regular season and tournament. My DA said that a formal announcement is expected on the LL web site in the next 10 or so days. They say it is an insurance/liability issue.
Has anyone else heard anything about this? There are a lot of leagues in my district that use only youth umps for majors and below, and this will certainly create some problems if it is true.
Thanks,
Mike
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Nickname:
Frank_B
Posts: 6573
Member Since: 12/16/02
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:39am
Views: 866
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Mike:
My DA attended that clinic.
He said the minimum age will be 18, not 16.
Some confusion about an adult being on the field if a under 18 is umpiring.
Could be another umpire? Or, for example, a non-umpire adult? It appears some DA's came away "confused."
let's wait for WP to put it out in writing. [My DA's view at this time.]
Frank!
[ Modified 11/3/2009 5:25am by Frank_B ]
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Nickname:
beowulf37
Posts: 1261
Member Since: 6/28/01
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:55am
Views: 858
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Oh yes - I'm sure a written announcement from WP will make everything crystal clear......
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Nickname:
Frank_B
Posts: 6573
Member Since: 12/16/02
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:20am
Views: 854
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I didn't, and my DA didn't, say that it would.
It would, at minimum, give ALL interested parties a chance to work/critique from first-hand info....not 2nd or 3rd party "understandings" as to what the hell was said by the powers-that-be, on that subject, at the clinic.
If my DA, a very intelligent gentleman, came away confused....it begs getting it in writing as a starting point for all here to
"dissect."
Frank!
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Nickname:
Pete_Booth
Posts: 4786
Member Since: 4/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:29am
Views: 851
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I heard through my DA, who attended the East Region DA Clinic, that LL will be requiring all youth umpires to be 16 or older, and that all games must have at least one adult (18 or older) umpire
If that's the case, will LL FINALLY ENDORSE the paying of umpires?
I believe all of us know how difficult it is to get Volunteer ADULT umpires. In 'THEORY" it would be nice to have at least one ADULT umpiring but in many instances that is simply not the case.
Now you take away the 13-15 yr. old range who basically umpires the minor division and some major games and now what are you left with?
Many kids at the ages of 16-18 are working. So if LL wants to attract a higher age group then they will have to ENDORSE paying for umpires.
Typical LL statement. There is not a problem with LL Regionals / and LLWS but that is not the norm but then again LL doesn't care about the average run of the mill LL organization. They care about their show.
We have had some horror stories, most recently a player being called out for giving a high five to his coach.
Good luck getting VOLUNTEER umpires starting at age 16 or older who are working to make extra money.
Pete Booth
[ Modified 11/3/2009 9:24am by Pete_Booth ]
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Nickname:
Frank_B
Posts: 6573
Member Since: 12/16/02
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:31am
Views: 828
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I was told-[again 2nd party]--that umpire fees will be addressed with a "spin" on threshold totals-->[exceding $600.00] and requirements related to going over that threshold.
Also:
Tournament (baseball) championships. below Majors,i.e.9/10's, will be advancing beyond State level to Regional level... the venue for Eastern Regional-[9/10's]- games will not be Bristol....but TBD.
Frank!
[ Modified 11/3/2009 7:47am by Frank_B ]
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Nickname:
Lou_B
Posts: 13828
Member Since: 4/30/02
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:41am
Views: 405
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Tournament (baseball) championships. below Majors,i.e.9/10's, will be advancing beyond State level to Regional level... the venue for Eastern Regional-[9/10's]- games will not be Bristol....but TBD.
Actually, what is being discussed is having a 9-10 World Series.
Another item is eliminating the 10-11 Tournamentand going back to the 9-10s and 11-12s (both of which would go all the way to a World Series).
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
Member Since: 5/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:43am
Views: 849
Replies: 2
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Kyle's gonna love this.
For 2+ years I've pretty much kept my mouth shut on all things LL since we're now CR and I never felt it was my place to criticize a program we were no longer in BUT.....
This is just stupid. If there's a liability problem then fix the g.d. insurance policy. Pete's got it right - small leagues especially are gonna get croaked by this.
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:00am
Views: 841
Replies: 2
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Actually, I think it's the bigger ones who will get croaked by this -- we have more games to cover.
I agree this is a stupid policy. if it is as represented.
What liability problem ? There are ALREADY adults on the field - the managers or coaches.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
Member Since: 5/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:07am
Views: 837
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Now that I think of it.......
....it DOES close the loophole on the volunteer app. Youth volunteers can't have any applicable juvenile record examined AFAIK. In essence you can currently have un-vetted (is that a word?) volunteers on the field.
It's still a stupid rule as described.
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Nickname:
Lou_B
Posts: 13828
Member Since: 4/30/02
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:46am
Views: 405
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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What liability problem ? There are ALREADY adults on the field - the managers or coaches.
From what I was told, that's the problem, the managers and coaches !!!
I was told there have been cases where there were two youth umpires doing games and one (or both) of youth umpires were accosted by an adult manager or coach.
In some cases, the youth umpires (and/or their parents) have sued.
That't the "liability" that's being discussed.
Their "solution" - put at least one adult umpire on the field.
Again, at this point this is being discussed in Williamsport, nothing is formal yet.
[ Modified 11/4/2009 9:50am by Lou_B ]
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:20am
Views: 833
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I've just sent off salvos to WR and WP. Standing by for the responses.
Here's the rub: A 14 year old umpire, who doesn't play Juniors, so is not covered as a player. Are they a volunteer, and covered by the insurance policy?
Yeah, if they decide that Jr. Umpires are not allowed, I'm probably out too, as that's the whole reason I volunteer.
And you CAN pay LL umpires. LL just suggests that you don't need to, but there's no rule against it. And this is not the issue.
Honestly, I doubt that LL is banning Junior umpires. We're seeing more and more of them trickle upward in post season play out here in the West. I see the insurance angle of it, but there's got to be a way to cover these kids.
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Nickname:
Lou_B
Posts: 13828
Member Since: 4/30/02
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:53am
Views: 839
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Seems the word hasn't spread from the East to the West !!!
From the Western Region Umpire Page:
The young volunteer umpire in Little League is the future of the umpire program.
...
the WRLLUAA has set aside ten (10) full scholarships to the Junior Umpire School to be held at the Western Region Headquarters (open to individuals between 13-17 years of age) scheduled for June 19-25, 2010.
So, it is 13, or 16, or 17 or 18 ??? !!!
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:06am
Views: 801
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Actually, this (according to my former DUIC) has been coming down the pike for a couple years now. When he was told of it, it was no junior umpire on the field without another umpire at least 18 (not 16).
Allowing pay was not one of the things that he said was brough up. Of course, this was a couple of years ago.
EDIT TO ADD: My DUIC never mentioned that LL was looking to prevent minors from umpiring. At least, at the time that wasn't the plan.
[ Modified 11/3/2009 8:13am by Will_Bumgardner ]
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Nickname:
Sean_
Posts: 832
Member Since: 1/22/01
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:55am
Views: 768
Replies: 2
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I was at the DA clinic over the weekend. Junior umpires are allowed. It is mandatory, however, that there be one adult (defined as one 18 years or older) on the field at gametime. That adult is designated as the umpire-in-chief. I am not sure where we are going to get all of these adults to umpire, short of getting an association to cover many of our games. That is not something I want to happen. There will be no volunteer umpires sooner than later. Willimsport totally got this one wrong. JMHO
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:00am
Views: 763
Replies: 3
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Ok... allow me to take the other side of the argument. How is this wrong? We all know that a lot of coaches tend to be more hot headed around minors than they do around adults. Part of this is because of the role reversal that takes place when a minor umpires a ball game -- that child is now in charge and the adult has to listen to the child or face consequences.
I think LLB is just looking to protect its child umpires. I know that in games I've watched (and worked), adult coaches are far less likely to get on a child's back with an adult around.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
Member Since: 5/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:09am
Views: 754
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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That's what the Board Member On Duty is for. You go to our fields any given night & you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a league official.
Whether or not a coach verbally abuses an umpire - ANY umpire - is part of the league culture. Leagues that have a zero tolerance policy won't have these problems. "Coach's Leagues" are full of them.
This is just another LL one-size-fits-all solution.
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Nickname:
Pete_Booth
Posts: 4786
Member Since: 4/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:22am
Views: 742
Replies: 3
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Ok... allow me to take the other side of the argument. How is this wrong?
Will it's not wrong just not feasable.
In a "PERFECT WORLD" we want to have at least one adult umpire present and working at EVERY game.
REALITY: It's not feasable that's why the Junior program started in the first place. LL organizations could not get enough ADULT volunteer umpires to cover all the games.
As far as the coaches "getting on" the jr. umpires that is a BOD problem. The BOD should put a stop to it but many BOD's are lax, hence they have trouble getting umpires.
LL should simply face it. PAY Umpires and do not hold that against them for possible Regional / LLWS assignments.
Pete Booth
[ Modified 11/3/2009 9:24am by Pete_Booth ]
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:47am
Views: 717
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I think the leagues that are going to have problems are the leagues that have gone to predominately junior umpires. Leagues that already have a good number of adult umpires aren't going to see this problem.
This is why you're saying it's not feasible. I disagree. I think it's completely feasible.
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:48am
Views: 719
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I run a Junior program. There is NO way I can get an adult on every game. Further, my Juniors don't need an adult ump on the field. They can - and do - take care of themselves.
- Frank
WA D9
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:20am
Views: 699
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"I run a Junior program. There is NO way I can get an adult on every game. Further, my Juniors don't need an adult ump on the field. They can - and do - take care of themselves."
Why, Frank, can't you get an adult on every game? Do you just not have any?
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:42am
Views: 666
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Will - I should have said "a trained adult umpire" on every game. We can require coaches to umpire, of course, and they are present at every game.
We have never had much luck recruiting adults to fill all the games, particularly those on weeknights that start at 5:30. Before the Junior program, coaches would fill in as needed, and they were almost always needed.
As for why? I don't know. I do know our plight is shared by every league around us.
- Frank
WA D9
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Nickname:
Defender of Gothum
Posts: 2
Member Since: 4/17/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:18am
Views: 676
Replies: 4
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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This is my 1st post on this board... I feel this subject is important.
Will... it's wrong because the youth of baseball is the future of LL. LL is a youth development program and should be played (in cluding the Umpiring) by youth participants. One of the 'life lessons' we are attempting to teach is "Dealing with your peers... right or wrong".
Pete... Why in a 'Perfect world' would we want or need an adult on the field of a YOUTH program? Adult Managers and Coaches DO NOT participate, the coach and manage. LL allows for Adult Umpires to participate, but to REQUIRE an adult to be on the field when there are TRAINED youth umpire available is just silly. I've seen ADULTS that couldn't umpire their way out of a paper sack, let alone provide the quality of Umpiring that one of our JUTS (soon to be known as JUTA)is equipped with. The goal of LL should not be to REMOVE the youth participant, but to TRAIN him of her (develop if you will) for their role in the program
BATMAN
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:29am
Views: 674
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Batman (welcome to this board :) ):
I'm not condoning the elimination of the youth program. If that's what LLB is trying to get at, then that is wrong and they're going to have a lot of problems.
What I'm saying is that I don't think it's wrong to mandate one adult umpire on the field for all games.
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:45am
Views: 665
Replies: 3
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I guess my question is - what is RIGHT about mandating an adult umpire at every game? What purpose is achieved and why make the change? In our league, at least, the junior umps get less catcalling from the stands and coaches than adults do... maybe we can apply for a waiver?
- Frank
WA D9
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:49am
Views: 665
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Go back to a previous post of mine in this thread. My best guess is that they get too many complaints about adult coaches coming down harder on youth umpires. And since youth umpires aren't used to being in charge over an adult, there tends to be a conflict. The feeling is probably such that if an adult is on the game, the conflict dissapates.
It's probably right along the same lines as to why there's no on-deck circle, no head first sliding, and the like. Someone complained too much (or sued, depending on the circumstance) and instead of standing up for what's going on, LL decided to change its stance.
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:52am
Views: 664
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Will - you are probably right. The old "squeaky wheel" theory of running an organization. I'd hope LL would be smarter than that. A huge change like this should be discussed and debated by the troops on the ground - UICs (like me), DAs, BOD Presidents, and the like. We're the ones who know how the junior programs work.
- Frank
WA D9
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:00pm
Views: 660
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I should also point out that I've worked with a lot of junior umpires, many of which are really good (or have the potential to be there) and really want to learn. I worked with one this past summer who was excited to finally get the chance to work with me and soaked up everything I helped him with.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:30pm
Views: 622
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"maybe we can apply for a waiver?"
I was thinking the exact same thing -
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 2:59pm
Views: 597
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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... maybe we can apply for a waiver?
If this is an insurance (they'll say safety) driven decision, there's no chance for a waiver.
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:11pm
Views: 655
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Look, my program is to the point where I don't even need adult umpires. I can get all my Majors and Minor games done by 12-15 year olds. And officiated better than the my surrounding leagues who rely on paid associations.
Thanks to Batman, and the great team of teachers in San Bernadino, I've got a team that's second to none. And I fully understand if some can't comprehend that a 13 year old can handle a 50 year old manager. But they can, trust me, with the proper training.
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:19pm
Views: 651
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I'm not doubting you, Kyle. But, I guess my question to you would be -- why are you not doing anything with the adults?
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:39pm
Views: 644
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I'm not doubting you, Kyle. But, I guess my question to you would be -- why are you not doing anything with the adults?
No one has stepped forward in several years. That, in my mind, is a testiment to our program. There's no need for adults to be on the field, and the parents are fine with the kids umpiring. Heck, let's go back to kids being base coaches. Less of us, and more of them has been my motto for years.
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:45pm
Views: 640
Replies: 0
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I definitely agree with having the kids as base coaches. They should be the ones on the bases. I loved doing it when I played. Problem is, the coaches don't COACH their players on how to do it.
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Nickname:
Pete_Booth
Posts: 4786
Member Since: 4/24/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:22pm
Views: 627
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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The goal of LL should not be to REMOVE the youth participant, but to TRAIN him of her (develop if you will) for their role in the program
If that is what you truly believe then why not have Youth's umpire the LL regionals / LLWS.
You have 6 ADULT umpires on the field. According to your stance these should be youths.
Also, what you are forgetting is that LL encompases TEE ball through BIG League (ages 16-18) Going to put youth umpires on a BIG League game?
Also, today times are tough. Youths meaning teenagers are out there earning money, therefore, if you want to have a youth development program then you are going to have to pay them.
Also, and it depends upon one's area, generally speaking UNLESS you have a strong BOD, games umpired by youths get out of hand as opposed to having at least one adult person umpiring EVEN if that adult is not a good umpire.
Pete Booth
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:39pm
Views: 618
Replies: 0
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If that is what you truly believe then why not have Youth's umpire the LL regionals / LLWS.
That would be GREAT! I have three individuals, two 15 and one 14 year old, who are ready right now. They've all been to the one week (one of 'em twice), and are up to the task. Two have done division (state) already.
I've got half a crew at my local ready to go.
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:32pm
Views: 531
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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BATMAN! Help us!
This rule is going to kill the JUTS program, as the rule will require the adult to be the UIC, and rules 9.03 and 9.04 state that the UIC has the dish. Hence, no more kids behind the plate in Little League.
Lee, the east coast has no idea what the Junior umpires on the West coast are like. We need to knock some heads together to save our programs!
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:07pm
Views: 660
Replies: 0
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We've used ONLY "junior" umpires for Minors for 5 years now. If anything the adults are LESS hot-headed around them, especially since they are told in no uncertain terms the junior umps ARE in charge of the game, and have the 100% backing of the BOD.
If anything, we have far fewer problems with coaches going off on the junior umpires than we do with the adult umpires.
Junior umpires need no more protection than the adult umpires: the rules of the game and the backing of the Board of Directors.
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Nickname:
johnc123
Posts: 363
Member Since: 11/18/04
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:42am
Views: 728
Replies: 1
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"Junior umpires are allowed. It is mandatory, however, that there be one adult (defined as one 18 years or older) on the field at gametime. That adult is designated as the umpire-in-chief."
This has not come up in our board meetings, but we are predictable, so I know exactly what our league will do. Majors will not change, as for those we always have an adult behind the plate and either an older youth or an adult as BU.
We will continue to have youth umpires work the plate for almost all minors games. A coach or parent from the home team will be required to work as BU and UIC. For low minors games, in order to get younger youth umpires up to speed, we'll probably have two BU's on the field for weekend games, one youth and one adult UIC.
If true, this will be a bit of a pain, but not really that big a deal for us. The biggest hassle will be for some managers who have to either twist arms to get volunteer parents, or take the BU job themselves. For the league, the only issue will be making sure that every parent who might ump has a volunteer application on file. We will save a little money on youth ump fees, and those kids will have to find other sources for their mad money.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:39am
Views: 688
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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FWIW - our local league probably uses a 50/50 mix (junior/adult) in both Majors and Minors games. The kids are just as qualified as the adults - and most of them have FAR MORE training. The only thing they lack is experience and, initially, "the voice". That being said, Kyle has run a junior program for the past 4 years and his predecessor established the program many years before.
Last year I heard at a Multi-League City Tournament game "by putting that kid back there, and not an adult, you're disrespecting our league" And after biting my tongue I pointed out that 14YO umpire had not surrendered 4 home runs and 15 runs to his opponent. He went on to say "he missed a couple of pitches" and I asked him how sure he was with his view from his bucket.
The bottom line for me is that this is a local league issue. Some leagues pay buckets of money for umpires - good for them. Some leagues make other managers and coaches umpire other games - good for them. Other leagues use lots of junior umpires - good for them. Everyone's situation and culture is different. LLHQ should not be making a blanket statement on the use of umpires.
As a previous poster said - if this is a liability/insurance issue - figure it out - heck they got two guys in the Risk Dept at LL HQ. LL certainly isn't going to hide behind an "integrity of the game" argument after some of the efforts we've seen in the LLWS in the past 10 years. I've got 3 14YO "Junior" Umpires who I wouldn't fear being placed on any game, anywhere.
[ Modified 11/3/2009 10:40am by BBDadX2 ]
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
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Posted: 11/3/2009 12:27pm
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Our Juniors do all the "low minors" games in pairs. Adult "patched" umpires do the 11-12 games (AAA and Majors). Some of the older "kids" can do the occasional AAA and Majors games. Also, we have 6 "graduates" of the program who are now "patched" by the local association and who do Majors and AAA games, some of whom were 16 or 17 last year.
I'd put some them up against some of the adults any day. Why ? The "kids" are better trained and more experienced. Some of them have been doing this for 5 or 6 years, whereas some of the adult umpires are rookies, and it shows.
It's not one-size-fits all.
If you are just shoving a kid out there with minimal training, then he should have an adult with him. Heck, he shouldn't be out there, but if the choice is that, or a parent dragged unwillingly out of the stands, or making a coach leave early from work for ANOTHER day, I'll take the kid.
But if they are trained, why do they need an adult on the field with them ?
Case in point: in a Minors tournament we run, we had a particular coach from out of town who was giving the umpires a hard time, and the parents on his team were a really nasty bunch; the coach would use them to bait the umpire. We put whatever adult umpire we could get from the association on short notice on his next game. It didn't go well, the "fans" rode him all game.
In the next game, we put our "senior" "junior" umpire on the plate, and our another very good youth umpire on the bases. They were aware of the situation.
The top of the first inning, the "fans" didn't like a particular strike call or two, the mask came off, "any more of that and I'm clearing the specator area" followed by booing and "you can't do that..." and Rule 9.01(f) got cited in the top of the first inning. The coach and his "fans" were angels the rest of the way.
It helps when the "junior" umpires are in full uniform.
Still, most of them do lack "the voice". Not all.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
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Posted: 11/3/2009 1:40pm
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"most of them do lack "the voice". Not all."
And all of our WR graduates have it - it's not a high volume, it's a tone and the words they use. In the same game, that I described in my earlier post, that cross town manager who thought we were disrespecting his league with a Junior Umpire on the dish was shut down in the first inning.
The umpire gave him a look on the first couple of strike calls and then gave him the "that's enough coach" with the hand later in the same inning. He apparently didn't say much the rest of the way. That's all it took....
Turns out the guy was also the UIC of that other league! And as Paul Harvey would say: "That's the rrrrest of the story"
BTW - it was an enjoyable ride home with that umpire and then I made him do his algebra homework.
[ Modified 11/3/2009 1:44pm by BBDadX2 ]
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
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Posted: 11/3/2009 2:25pm
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Almost the same here for me too -- except he hasn't been to a Regional school - neither have I, for that matter.
He shut a coach down in his very first game when he was 12 in the PRE-GAME over some ground rules nonsense (I think it was staying in the dugout). Yes, he had the plate too over his 6-foot tall older brother.
OK, it was a regular season 9-10 year old game, but still, the coach was one of those "legend in his own mind" guys.
Still it was hilarious, a 5'2" scrawny 12 year old shaking his head with his hands behind his back, while coach points and fumes, and then the kid puts his hand up, and gives the baleful stare and the "Sir, that's enough. Those are the ground rules. We'll be starting the game now so please go to the dugout."
Parents were practically falling off the bleachers trying not to burst out laughing. One of the parents for the COACHES team, not knowing who I was said "It's about time someone put that guy in his place."
You're dead on - it's not volume, it's presence.
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Nickname:
dtpoet
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Posted: 11/3/2009 3:31pm
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Sorry - I didn't have a chance to read all your messages.
This is going to hurt my league. The most interest we had was from those under 18. The adults were to busy with high school games.
So I guess in order to get umpires I will have to raise my rates to compete with high school and softball programs.
I'm not embarassed to say that my umpire-in-chief for my league this year was a junior in high school. He was awesome! I would put him up against any other UIC in our area. I asked him because no adult would do the job!
This is going to hurt teens who may not have the skills to continue into Juniors and beyond but who still have the passion and the love for the game.
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Nickname:
boho1
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Posted: 11/4/2009 5:25am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Once again LL has thrown a wrench into the works. We have a system that works well for both our LL and it's graduates.
We recruit interested LL graduates, and believe me these kids are devoted to the game, into umpipring by taking those kids to an intense rules and mechanics class given in the winter months by a former LL President and UIC, from a neighboring town.
At this 6 week class (one night a week) they cover ALL the rules and then are given a test that MOST LL Managers couldn't pass.
Those that pass the test (70+) are then patched and given games in our Minor League player pitch league behind the plate. An adult coach from another Minor League team not particpating in the game will do the bases. Our UIC will monitor, evaluate, and correct the performance of the Jr. Ump. After two years in the Minor League (and usually a second sitting in of the umpire class) those umpires who exhibit the proper appearance, composure, knowledge, and ability to control the game, are advanced to the Major Leagues.
In the Majors we also have a non-participating coach do the bases and tally the pitch counts.
This system works extremely well and allows former LL players to advance into umpiring. Where else will they learn? Some of these kids graduate to BR games and AAU tournaments where they perform extremely well. We also have some graduates that I would not hestiate to put in games at ANY level and they would do well.
Cranberry Blue has it right.
"This is just stupid. If there's a liability problem then fix the g.d. insurance policy."
Why upset the system of the local league for the sake of acquiescing to the insurance company. Fix the insurance policy or find another insurer.
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Nickname:
733
Posts: 128
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Posted: 11/4/2009 7:08am
Views: 462
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Based on the number of response to this post, hopefully HQ is already catching some flak on this that will cause them to re-think. Who would we send an objection to? Our DA, or higher?
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Nickname:
Kyle_
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Posted: 11/4/2009 8:24am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I'm sending my blasts directly to the Regionals and Williamsport. I've a had great trade of emails from our WR chief. He's a good guy, and is understanding to our plight.
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Nickname:
Lou_B
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Posted: 11/4/2009 10:01am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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The following e:Mail from Steve Barr is is posted on the LL Umpire Board on Yahoo:
I can say there are some changes coming, but until we, first, make sure everyone in the field is aware of the changes, I cannot comment on them to the media. I will say that some of the assumptions/rumors that are out there are incorrect. Feel free to keep in touch in the coming days as I anticipate some sort of announcement in the near future. Or, check our web site "www.littleleague.org".
Thanks and have a good day.
Steve Barr
Director of Media Relations
========
If you want to provide some "feedback" to LL on this, simply send an e:Mail to sbarr@littleleague.org
[ Modified 11/4/2009 10:12am by Lou_B ]
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
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Posted: 11/4/2009 8:14am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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boho: You're league already does what LL is wanting to do. You already have an adult on each game with a child. What's the problem?
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
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Posted: 11/4/2009 8:26am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Read the OP.....
"....that LL will be requiring all youth umpires to be 16 or older, and that all games must have at least one adult (18 or older) umpire."
frank!'s following post said the minimum age would not be 16 but 18.
According to boho their umpires start at 13.
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Nickname:
Manny_A
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Posted: 11/4/2009 7:26am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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There are a lot of unknowns here. First off, we have no idea if this is a done deal or just a suggestion. Perhaps LL is going to have a policy of STRONGLY encouraging that one of the umpires on the field be an adult, and not making it a hard-fast requirement. I'll just wait to see something in writing come out from W-port.
Also, many of you are responding from your personal perspectives. You have NO idea what the big picture is really like. For all we know, there are hundreds of local leagues who stick youth umpires out there with very little training, and have very weak boards that won't take positive action against adult managers and coaches who give these young umpires hell during their games. And W-port is receiving loads of phone calls and emails from concerned parents in those leagues who, rather than fix the problem locally by running for their boards or volunteering to umpire, want Big Brother to come to the rescue.
If this does come to pass, it probably was a knee-jerk reaction. But it was probably necessary, given the possible state of affairs in the real world. For every league that is as blessed as some of you here can attest, there may be ten leagues that aren't. Many of us will never know.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
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Posted: 11/4/2009 7:36am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"For every league that is as blessed as some of you here can attest, there may be ten leagues that aren't."
I understand your post and agree that might be an issue. With all due respect, my response is "Who cares?". Why f up our program because others don't do their job?
The OP states that this is being spun as an insurance/liability issue and granted, we have no ER DA's here to speak to it, save frank!'s peripheral knowledge. My prior point still stands - if that's the issue then fix the insurance. If its really a behavior issue then shame on LL for ducking the issue & blaming the insurers.
[ Modified 11/4/2009 7:38am by CranberryBlue ]
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Nickname:
Manny_A
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Posted: 11/4/2009 8:46am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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The OP states that this is being spun as an insurance/liability issue...
I honestly can't figure out what that issue may be. On whose part?
Assume a AAA Minors game with two youth umpires. Where is the insurance or liability issue here? If a player gets hurt, there are already enough adults in the dugout to handle the situation. If the plate umpire gets hurt, how does putting an adult on the bases as opposed to another youth take care of that?
I suppose some lawyer or risk manager probably opined that entrusting one or two youth umpires to represent the league and Little League Baseball--per rule 9.01(b)--may be a problem.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
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Posted: 11/4/2009 9:00am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"I honestly can't figure out what that issue may be."
Most probably the volunteer app - juvenile records are sealed and violations wouldn't show up during a CORI.
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16614
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Posted: 11/4/2009 9:36am
Views: 408
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Most probably the volunteer app - juvenile records are sealed and violations wouldn't show up during a CORI.
If that's the issue, the solution is simple--no youth umpires, period. But that's not what LL HQ is supposedly saying, according to those in the know.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
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Posted: 11/4/2009 9:48am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"....the solution is simple--no youth umpires...."
Which, if you go back to the OP & frank!'s response, is what was said. CTMike said 16+ & frank! said his DA told him 18+.
Then again, I'm not sure if you mean the same 'in the know' as I listed. Do you have a different source for this info?
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16614
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Posted: 11/4/2009 9:53am
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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My source of info has been this thread, and there are different opinions of what was said. I'm assuming that the new policy is that youth umpires are okay as long as one adult umpire is on the field as well.
I'm just going to wait until something comes out from LL that's official.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:33am
Views: 438
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"And W-port is receiving loads of phone calls and emails from concerned parents in those leagues"
Why would WP even accept the phone call. In every other instance the DA, Region, or WP typically says "that's a local issue" "talk to your local board".
The issue here, IMO, is that the people whining and complaining about Junior Umpires have no foundation for their argument. In our city tournament last year both of our fellow leagues complained about Junior Umpires behind the dish. I ask them "what were the doing wrong? what could an "adult" do better" - they couldn't respond. The only response was "well, there should just be an adult back there."
Ironically in the Minors Championship game, the other league demanded that we use one of there adults - after all the cr*p I had endured over two weeks I initially refused. But then I relented. After that game the adult umpire, who appeared to have MANY years of experience came by to tell me what an outstanding job they had done. Was I surprised? Heck no - that's what was expected and that's why they'd been assigned to the title game.
This is a perception issue plain and simple that is sadly becoming a reflection of our nanny state. At my local league the leadership (and membership) believes our teenagers can learn the rules and we expect them to learn to be leaders and UIC's. We expect them to confront adults in an adult manner - we expect them to face controversy and work towards a proper, legal resolution. We expect them to make mistakes, take ownership for those mistakes and then learn from those mistakes.
I'm guessing in the places where "people have called WP to complain" they don't have such high expectations or goals for their children and the adults feel the need to have complete control of the children's activity.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:39am
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My message to WP
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As someone else noted - DA's, BOD's, UIC's and others need to have the "other" voice heard at the highest level. Here's the message I sent to WP:
Dear Sirs -
It has been brought to my attention that at a recent Eastern Region Umpire Clinic that statements were made regarding limiting the use of Junior Umpires in Little League games in the upcoming season. The discussion on the respected "Eteamz" Umpire Board indicates that Little League International is considering requiring the use of adults (age 18+) as umpires in chief in every game and placing strict limitation on the use of Junior Umpires (age 13-17).
If this depiction is accurate - it is completely unacceptable at our local league.
And if this decision is being considered due to risk/liability concerns - seek a solution that allows us the continued use of Junior Umpires in any capacity.
Since Rancho Buena Vista Little League began its partnership with the Positive Coaching Alliance 3 years ago, requiring our Managers to be certified Double Goal Coaches, we have seen issues related to umpires (both junior and adult) evaporate. Our umpires have not been provoked enough to eject a manager in more than 5 years. Our managers "get it" and understand the respect for the game, the officials (of any age) and community that is our Rancho Buena Vista Little League.
If this is an issue that leagues are struggling with because "the inmates are running the asylum" - don't pass a blanket rule that would penalize leagues who DO have control of their managers and parents.
For the past 10 years Rancho Buena Vista Little League has made a commitment to developing the finest Junior Umpire Program anywhere. In conjunction with the DUIC, our (100% volunteer) Umpire in Chief provides winter clinics, winter training, spring training classes and has overseen the development of more than 50 junior umpires over the last 10 years. Our junior umpires, and the complete umpiring staff, are a team unto themselves that pride themselves on excellence on the field and understand and savor their importance in making our local community league the envy of most.
In the past 3 years we have sent more than a dozen junior umpires to the June, week long, Western Region Junior Umpire School in San Bernardino. These umpires return as role models and leaders for our new crop of interested candidates. Like every other baseball team in our league, they practice, they work hard in games, and then review their performance with post-game reviews. Their continued involvement in the Little League Organization after their playing days are over allows them to continue to grow and thrive in the context of "character, courage, and loyalty." And their growth as umpires helps develop even greater leadership qualities and self confidence through their role as a game arbiter.
In the past 3 years, Junior Umpires trained at Rancho Buena Vista Little League have umpired tournament games in every age group, culminating with one of our 14YO umpires working the 09/10 SoCal Divisional Championships in San Bernardino this past September.
I fear that a LL HQ decision to infringe on our local decision to train and use Junior Umpires will dramatically hurt our league and limit the opportunities for another 20+ children (annually) to be a part of our fine organization.
If in fact you are considering this action - reconsider - and let (and expect) local leagues to manage their staff in a way that best suit the local need and community.
Address the insurance problem - don't shoot the messenger.
Sincerely,
Mark Phelan - President
Rancho Buena Vista Little League (0405-28-02)
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:54am
Views: 428
Replies: 4
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Re: My message to WP
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Again, why can't you train adults? You can't honestly tell me that you don't even have ONE adult that is willing to learn how to be an umpire.
I don't think anyone is saying that you have to stop developing youth umpires. What they're saying is that they want an adult on every game. So train some adults!
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:02am
Views: 427
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Re: My message to WP
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Will -
If it were only ONE adult, no problem.
Here is the problem. On a typical Monday, we have 12 games going on at various locations. We have 24 Junior umps who can do those games. If I can get 4 adults on the field, then I can use 4 Juniors (or maybe 8 and run 3 man), but the other 8 games will have no umpires even though I have 16 perfectly capable teenagers able and willing to go.
I don't know if you are a UIC, Will, but all over the USA, getting adult volunteer umpires is a huge problem for LL. If you don't believe me, just go to the LL website - they have an article there entitled something like "Where have all the umpires gone?".
And, now that we have a Junior program, we all find - coaches, parents, players, BOD memebers - that we prefer having kids out there umpiring. It is a great extension to the LL program, which is all about the kids. We now have 30-some teenagers still involved in LL who would have been long gone. I can't tell you how many parents of players come to me and say they love seeing the teens out there. This rule probably imperils that.
But, we don't have the actual rule yet. It may be satisfied by pulling a dad or mom out of the stand and having them take the U6 position for all I know.
- Frank
UIC Issaquah LL, WA D9
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:11am
Views: 423
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Re: My message to WP
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Again, why can't you train adults? You can't honestly tell me that you don't even have ONE adult that is willing to learn how to be an umpire.
I have my right hand in the air, and I'm honestly saying I've had no adults step up in four years. But our parents are fine with that because of the level of the kids we train as umpires. Adults aren't been needed to umpire games in our league. Our parents want the kids to be involved in umpiring once they graduate from baseball.
Okay, I get it. My league may be unique. We haven't needed adult umpires in years. Our kids are trained far beyond most league. But why penalize us for it? We're doing things right, but still get slapped down.
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16614
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:33am
Views: 413
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Re: My message to WP
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I have my right hand in the air, and I'm honestly saying I've had no adults step up in four years.
If you have such a well-oiled machine through the use of kids as umpires, why would they bother?
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:47am
Views: 406
Replies: 1
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Re: My message to WP
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Thank you, Manny. That's what I was also going to say. Why would an adult want to step into it? Please don't take offense to this, Kyle, but it appears like the league frowns on using adult umpires. Please tell me that I'm wrong on this.
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:10am
Views: 398
Replies: 2
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Re: My message to WP
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Please don't take offense to this, Kyle, but it appears like the league frowns on using adult umpires. Please tell me that I'm wrong on this.
Okay, you're wrong on this. We don't frown on adult umpires at all. In fact, I get umpires from all over the county coming to work at our fields, as it's a pretty cool place to work.
The thing is that the parents have accepted our kids as "real" umpires, and really love our program. I teaches the kids responsibility, and how to handle tough situations on their own. This new mandate will counteract this, and put the adult "in charge". We don't need it at our park.
We don't have problems with adults trying intimidate, or roll over our Junior Umpires. Our kids have no trouble ejecting guys three times their age, and our managers accept the fact that these kids are in charge. This rule will change that.
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:16am
Views: 395
Replies: 0
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Re: My message to WP
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Thank you for telling me that I'm wrong. I feel better. :)
I don't think this is doing any of that. Of course, I haven't seen anything in writing, so I don't know.
What really bothers me about this isn't the complaining about this new "rule". It's that there's a feeling that nobody is going to try to get adults to umpire.
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Nickname:
GrasshopperMIB
Posts: 3205
Member Since: 12/31/01
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:16pm
Views: 345
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Re: My message to WP
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Mr. Kyle_,
We don't have problems with adults trying intimidate, or roll over our Junior Umpires. Our kids have no trouble ejecting guys three times their age, and our managers accept the fact that these kids are in charge. This rule will change that.
1. A youth umpire may not be the UIC of the crew, but certainly is still an umpire for that game. :o)
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/4/2009 12:18pm
Views: 369
Replies: 0
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Re: My message to WP
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You're not unique. Rare, maybe. Maybe not.
Here in Northeast MA we have the same reaction - the kids are part of the system now.
Parents WANT it -- they don't want to get dragged out of the stands to umpire. They VOTED to pay umpires.
I've had a standing offer to train adult volunteers for 6 years. I've had TWO nibbles and NO takers.
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:11am
Views: 427
Replies: 0
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Re: My message to WP
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Again, why can't you train adults? You can't honestly tell me that you don't even have ONE adult that is willing to learn how to be an umpire.
I have my right hand in the air, and I'm honestly saying I've had no adults step up in four years. But our parents are fine with that because of the level of the kids we train as umpires. Adults aren't been needed to umpire games in our league. Our parents want the kids to be involved in umpiring once they graduate from baseball.
Okay, I get it. My league may be unique. We haven't needed adult umpires in years. Our kids are trained far beyond most league. But why penalize us for it? We're doing things right, but still get slapped down because other leagues can't control their idiot parents.
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Nickname:
Pete_Booth
Posts: 4786
Member Since: 4/24/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:30am
Views: 396
Replies: 2
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Re: My message to WP
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Again, why can't you train adults? You can't honestly tell me that you don't even have ONE adult that is willing to learn how to be an umpire .
Will IMO you are missing the point. The ADULT umpires are getting PAID, that's why LL has a very hard time in getting adults.
Just about every other youth oriented baseball league that I can think of which includes Ripken , Babe Ruth, USSSA etc. PAYS for their umpires. By pay I mean market rates as they use an outside umpire association.
If you live in area in which LL is the only game in town is one thing, but if you have travel ball, etc. in your area, it's virtually impossible to get adult umpires to work games for free when they earn say $200.00 at the minimum on a weekend (2 games each day) and that's only the weekends.
If the statements we are hearing are in fact TRUE, good luck in getting umpires to cover all your games in a particular LL association.
I know I sound like a broken record but LL Hdqtrs. doesn't care about the average run of the mill LL association. They care about THEIR show and they have plenty of adult umpires come Regionals / LLWS.
If in fact LL wants umpires above the age of 16 then GET REAL and endorse paying them. By endorse I mean do not hold that aginst an umpire for being selected to do Regionals / or the LLWS.
Again LL at it's best. They simply issue mandates without researching the ENTIRE problem.
Pete Booth
[ Modified 11/4/2009 10:33am by Pete_Booth ]
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:36am
Views: 396
Replies: 1
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Re: My message to WP
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Pete, there are areas that have everything you say AND MORE and have no trouble getting adult umpires to volunteer their time.
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Nickname:
Mark__P
Posts: 125
Member Since: 6/26/07
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:56am
Views: 386
Replies: 1
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Re: My message to WP
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Pete, there are areas that have everything you say AND MORE and have no trouble getting adult umpires to volunteer their time.
The unspoken sentiment behind this statement is that adult umpires are "better" (in some sense) than youth umpires.
I think the point that many people are missing is that allowing youths to umpire is actually helping LL to meet its stated goals and objectives. If I may quote from p 10 of the 2009 LGB, "Little League is a program of service to youth. ... The movement is dedicated to helping children become good and decent citizens."
In my opinion, _umpiring_ baseball is an even better mechanism for reaching these goals than _playing_ baseball.
Thus, I think (properly trained and supported) youths should be our first choice for umpires with adults to fill in as necessary - not the other way around. Preventing our youths from umpiring is just passing up too good an opportunity to train our future leaders.
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:05am
Views: 384
Replies: 0
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Re: My message to WP
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Wow... I don't know how you got that. If there was any inkling of intent in that direction, I apologize. That was definitely not my intention. I've watched youth umpires that can umpire circles around adults that have been doing it twice as long.
EDIT TO ADD: The meaning behind that post was just to counter Pete's assertion that LL's have problems finding adult volunteers in areas that have other paid avenues.
[ Modified 11/4/2009 11:07am by Will_Bumgardner ]
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16614
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:56pm
Views: 349
Replies: 0
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Re: My message to WP
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If you live in area in which LL is the only game in town is one thing, but if you have travel ball, etc. in your area, it's virtually impossible to get adult umpires to work games for free when they earn say $200.00 at the minimum on a weekend (2 games each day) and that's only the weekends.
Another blanket statement that doesn't necessarily apply everywhere.
We have tons of opportunities for adults to get paid to umpire around here in Northern Virginia. Yet, there are local LLs that continue to be pretty successful in getting adults on the field to umpire games. It's almost always parents of kids that are playing in the league. Once those kids graduate to play higher-level ball (Babe Ruth for leagues that don't have 90' programs, high school ball, etc.), the parents leave the league as well. Until then, those parents would rather stay close to their kids and around people they know well.
Yes, you do find a few adult umpires who continue to umpire LL games despite not having kids in the league. The main incentive that keeps them around is their desire to work tournament ball and move up to Region and World Series. Some DAs won't submit the names of umpires who don't work any LL games during the regular season.
Also, we have a few umpires who feel that getting paid comes with too much baggage. I've heard some horror stories from umpires who worked a couple of years in our local association, and then quit and went back to LL. The association, from what I understand, has too much of a good ol' boy network, and it's hard to crack that barrier to work quality games. They get stuck working lower-level games in crappy ball fields with snooty strangers watching. They also catch hell if they don't keep up with their schedule blocks, and/or they turn back assignments even if they have legitimate excuses. So they quit and go back to the friendly confines of the local league.
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:53am
Views: 431
Replies: 2
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Manny, even if what you say is true, that there may be hundreds of league where coaches beat the crap out of Junior umpires, why is the solution to restrict the Junior umpires? If the problem is coaches, FIX THE COACHES!
- Frank
WA D9
(Edited to fix typo 'Many')
[ Modified 11/4/2009 8:39am by FrankFi ]
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:29am
Views: 416
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Okay Will (or anyone else) - I'm willing to listen. Why should there be a requirement for an adult (only legally defined as 18YO+) to be the UIC of a competitive LL game?
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:50am
Views: 405
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I don't necessarily like that part of this requirement. I think they're trying to say "crew chief" and not "UIC".
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:59am
Views: 402
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Will - I did hear from my DA that "crew chief" is what they mean, as you are suggesting. The back and forth on this thread does help me vent frustration, but of course without the actual wording of the rule, we're all guessing.
Does anyone else find it strange though that LL would make such a rule without (apparently) the guys that run the JUTS being consulted beforehand? If that really is the case (and maybe they were consulted and just aren't saying, as is up to them of course), you'd think the rule has to be totally lawyer driven, where the opinions of umpires involved in junior programs aren't relevant.
- Frank
WA D9
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Nickname:
Will_Bumgardner
Posts: 721
Member Since: 4/14/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:02am
Views: 400
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Which goes back to what I've said previously -- someone probably sued or something similar to that, and instead of stadning up for what's going on with the local league, LL backed down and decided to change it.
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Nickname:
oldumpone
Posts: 5
Member Since: 11/04/09
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:35pm
Views: 352
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I also think the new rule is litigation driving and think it is a knee jerk reaction to something that happen in the past season. It will definitely hurt my league because we only have a few minor teams and a few major teams so the adults do the majors and the Junior umpires do the minors with a Junior partner. Sometimes the Junior umpire will umpire a Major game with an adult, but hardly ever have an adult for the minor game.
I can't help but comment on Mr. Booths insistence that everything will be all better if Little League just pays their umpires because "everyone else does it." Paying umpires only means your treasury is hitting bottom at the end of the season and the players (the kids and the ones who own the program) are left without. Paying just means you have someone to walk on the field and take your money; does not guarantee quality or even that the PAID umpire knows anything about the rules or dealing with children. IMHO paying an umpire while you don't pay any other member of the league (read Board member) is not the answer. The answer is to have an active league UIC who will call people, email people and teach people how to call a game. Just my two cents. Thanks for the chance to spill my pent up frustrations.
[ Modified 11/4/2009 1:32pm by oldumpone ]
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Nickname:
GrasshopperMIB
Posts: 3205
Member Since: 12/31/01
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:10pm
Views: 348
Replies: 2
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Mr. FrankFi,
Manny, even if what you say is true, that there may be hundreds of league where coaches beat the crap out of Junior umpires, why is the solution to restrict the Junior umpires? If the problem is coaches, FIX THE COACHES!
1. I believe the only restriction is there must be an adult on the field (for supervision). I do not believe there will be restrictions to eliminate youth umpires. :o)
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Nickname:
Mark_S
Posts: 394
Member Since: 11/24/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:13pm
Views: 347
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Here's the advance notice from LL:
Adults and Minors in Positions of Authority: Changes were made to Rule 2.00, Rule 4.1, Rule 9.01, Rule 9.03, Rule 9.04, and the Tournament Rules and Guidelines, making it clear that Minors may serve as coach or umpire under specific and limited circumstances as noted in each rule. (Summary: A coach who is 16 or 17 may only serve as a coach if the adult manager and another adult coach are appointed. A person who is not an adult may serve in a game as an umpire, including as plate umpire, provided one or more other adults are also umpires for that game. However, that non-adult umpire cannot be designated as umpire-in-chief for that game. The umpire-in-chief is not required to be the plate umpire.)
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Nickname:
oldumpone
Posts: 5
Member Since: 11/04/09
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:53pm
Views: 338
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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True....but what you are missing is that many leagues do NOT have the adults available to umpire let alone to umpire AND supervise the young umpires. Another case of trying to micromanage the local leagues without understanding what they have to do to have a successful program.
[ Modified 11/4/2009 2:54pm by oldumpone ]
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Nickname:
Mark_S
Posts: 394
Member Since: 11/24/00
Posted: 11/4/2009 3:11pm
Views: 336
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I was the UIC for a league that used to have lots of adult umpires. We always had a strong Junior umpire training program. When I started umpiring about 11 years ago first year adult umpires did AA or feed the machine in A-Ball with teens behind the plate for the training. As an adult you didn't get to do AAA or Majors for two or three years and Junior umpires didn't do anything above AA until they were 15 or 16 and those were usually the ones who worked with their dads.
Over the last several years I have watched the number of adult umpires fade drastically. Now the UIC is having to put two Junior umpires on everything up through AAA and second year Junior Umpires on Majors.
We tried many ideas to try and encourage more adults to sign up but they have a million and one reasons why they can't. With had several adults that came back year after year even though their kids were grown, and even had a few that never had kids in the program. Unfortunately, we were down to about 5 or 6 adults that worked games on a regular basis.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:16am
Views: 303
Replies: 3
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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" Now the UIC is having to put two Junior umpires on everything up through AAA and second year Junior Umpires on Majors."
And have you had any problems doing this?
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Nickname:
Mark_S
Posts: 394
Member Since: 11/24/00
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:24am
Views: 298
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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And have you had any problems doing this?
Actually it is not my problem anymore since I am no longer UIC. The league starts out Junior umpires at League Age 12. So yes I have concerns about putting a 13 yr old umpiring a game in Majors for kids that he played with last year or for his prior manager/coaches team.
The league has a strong training program for Junior Umpires but I think this is putting them in a situation that they should not be in, for the same reason everyone says not to umpire their own kids games. (And yes I did that on way too many occasions when my kids played LL, because otherwise they would not have had anybody.)
The real point I was trying to make was that we used to have lots of adult umpires and that has steadily declined. The new rule is going to create some major hardship for my local league.
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Nickname:
BBDadX2
Posts: 1517
Member Since: 3/08/03
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:13am
Views: 280
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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"So yes I have concerns"
"but I think this is putting them in a situation that they should not be in"
Mark - I'm not dogging you here - but you didn't answer my question. Did you have any problems with your junior umpires doing a poor job? Did you have adult coaching staffs attempting to intimidate them?
Because what I see in your response is only an opinion (that is clearly shared by my sister leagues in my local town). But again - it's only an opinion. It's how you're wired and what you believe in - I respect that. BTW - I also don't have any issue with Dads (or brothers) doing their relatives games.
Coaches and parents who claim there's a perception issue are, IMO, too focused on "W's" and hoping to gain an advantage of THEIR OWN - and by blaming the umpire for their team or child's failing somehow gets them off the hook for responsibility for a loss or a strikeout on a borderline pitch. Truthfully, our majors players LOVE having former teammates and "kids" umpiring their games - the complainers are the adults.
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Nickname:
Mark_S
Posts: 394
Member Since: 11/24/00
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:16am
Views: 276
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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BBDadX2;
In general our Junior Umpires are well trained and do a decent job. Yes we have had problems with over zealous managers/coaches. More at the lower levels because previously that is were the Junior Umpires primarily worked. I had 3 quit, talked 2 others into giving another try, and I had to spend time watching AA games instead of umpiring. The BoD did take some action against the manager(s) in question, but we always struggle to get enough managers at that level. As far as at the higher levels this is only a recent occurrence and there is usually an adult on the field to "protect" the Junior if needed. We have always had 16+ doing Majors and they handled it better than some of the adults, because they had already been on the field for 4 or 5 years.
Coaches and parents who claim there's a perception issue are, IMO, too focused on "W's" and hoping to gain an advantage of THEIR OWN - and by blaming the umpire for their team or child's failing somehow gets them off the hook for responsibility for a loss or a strikeout on a borderline pitch.
Absolutely agree with this statement!
Truthfully, our majors players LOVE having former teammates and "kids" umpiring their games - the complainers are the adults.
Agree about the adult complainers, I don't have a real feel for how the kids see it. Again, the 13 yr olds doing Majors basically went into place this fall due to a short fall of adults. Honestly I didn't spend a lot of time at the LL level this fall because I was no longer UIC and actually got to go watch my 18 yr old play, as a dad vice umpire!
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Nickname:
733
Posts: 128
Member Since: 5/24/03
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:40am
Views: 295
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Dear XXX:
The newly stated age restrictions on umpires and associated requirements for adult umpires at all levels is simply not acceptable to our league. Over the past four years we have cultivated a successful junior umpire program, including formal training at the league and district (and in some cases HQ) levels. These students, aged 15-17, often work with trained adults (whom we do not pay), especially early in their umpiring careers, but real progress for us comes when we successfully give responsibility to lower level (e.g., 9-10) games to two good youth umpires. Being able to do this has rescued our officiating situation, which was especially dire at the Minor level. Our board wants this, our coaches want this, and our parents want this. Many point to it as a huge step forward in our gameday operations.
This junior program has been a real shot in the arm to our league. Why LL would ask us undo or ratchet back this success is quite baffling to me. Not to mention that it diminishes developmental opportunities for youth in our league, which is completely inconsistent with an organization that prides itself on giving responsibility and involving young men and women as much as possible to help them become good citizens.
This issue must be reconsidered in a way that allows us locally to do what has been established to work best for our organization and for our youth.
[ Modified 11/5/2009 7:41am by 733 ]
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:08am
Views: 277
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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That's a well-worded response -- and pretty much along the lines of our situation.
We've had reactions like "The youth umpire program is the best thing to happen to baseball here in 5 years."
Little League is a COMMUNITY -- and youth umpires are an important part of the community by design -- and now LL wants to tear it down.
Character, Courage, Loyalty -- what better way to build it than umpiring ?
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Nickname:
Lou_B
Posts: 13828
Member Since: 4/30/02
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:56pm
Views: 248
Replies: 3
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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Here's a post from the LL Umpire Yahoo Group:
I have just received the following statement from Steve Barr, Little League Director of Media Relations.
Little League International Statement: Children as Managers, Coaches and Umpires
Some leagues that have requested to use child umpires, managers or coaches, in order to develop them as volunteers, and to augment the volunteer base at the local league.
It has always been the policy of Little League that managers, coaches and umpires should be adults, because it is unwise to put children in charge of other children in a competitive activity such as baseball and softball. The reasons for that policy should be obvious to anyone.
A person designated as a manager, coach or umpire is, in fact, acting as a parent of sorts on a baseball or softball field. In that capacity, the manager, coach or umpire has certain leadership as well as legal responsibilities for the safety and well-being of the children in his/her care.
Placing a child in charge of other children in that capacity, without the benefit of an adult present and in the same capacity, is grossly unfair to the child, and to the children and adults they are supervising. Also, it places the adults – who would allow such a situation to occur – in a potentially dangerous position legally.
With respect to allowing only children to umpire a game, it means they are responsible, by rule, for maintaining the discipline of the adult managers and coaches. Regardless of a league’s opinion of its current adult managers and coaches, anyone can see that such a situation also is grossly unfair to the child umpires in such a game.
Little League International has developed new rules allowing child coaches (age 16 or 17 only), provided an adult manager is present at the game or other activity, and provided another adult coach is on the roster.
We also have developed new rules for 2010 that provide for a child umpire (of any age), but only if an adult umpire is present on the field for that game, in the capacity of umpire-in-chief.
These changes in the rules still permit the development of children as volunteers, but require adult support for the obvious reasons noted above.
Also, while the umpire-in-chief is usually the home plate umpire, we are allowing the designated umpire-in-chief to be a base umpire, if the league wishes to do so. That would allow a child to be the plate umpire in a game, provided an adult who is a base umpire is designated as the umpire-in-chief for that game.
These new rules allow children to gain the experience of being a volunteer coach or umpire, while not putting those children or the children in their care, in legal danger.
[ Modified 11/5/2009 7:59pm by Lou_B ]
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:27pm
Views: 239
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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If they'd bother to crack open their own book, they'd find out that the UIC has little or no power. They get to decide which call is correct when two umpires make different calls on same play, and they get to decide on rule interpretations if an umpire crew can't agree. That's all the do.
We're thinking about designating whichever adult is in the third base coaches box as UIC. Heck, he's on the field, and he's an adult. But he won't make any calls, and he has no power. We'll local rule the little power he has away from him.
It's the build up of dopey rules like this that drive leagues away from LL.
And to all you LL BoD members out there. Get your league to apply for a waiver from this rule. If enough of us do that, we'll make our voices heard to the dolts in WP.
Look, I get that kids shouldn't be in charge of a team. But as umpires we're not in charge of children, we're in charge of The Game. Big difference.
[ Modified 11/5/2009 10:51pm by Kyle_ ]
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Nickname:
Manny_A
Posts: 16614
Member Since: 7/27/00
Posted: 11/7/2009 6:28am
Views: 169
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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If they'd bother to crack open their own book, they'd find out that the UIC has little or no power. They get to decide which call is correct when two umpires make different calls on same play, and they get to decide on rule interpretations if an umpire crew can't agree. That's all the do.
C'mon, Kyle. You need to stop staring at Rule 9.00 to make your point. There is much more that the game UIC is responsible for. Just to list a few:
- Rule 3.02 PENALTY: It's the UIC who judges if a ball has been doctored and removes the pitcher from the mound
- Rule 3.05a and b: It's the UIC who judges if a pitcher is incapacitated to the point that he/she can no longer pitch
- 3.10b: It's the UIC who judges that field conditions are worthy of starting/continuing play
- 4.14: It's the UIC who judges when darkness becomes an issue and directs that the lights get turned on (or, in the case where there are no lights, judges that the game must be called)
- 4.15: It's the UIC who judges when conditions warrant a stoppage in play and possible forfeit
- 4.18: It's the UIC who is responsible for writing the report that goes to the league president after he/she decides a game has to be forfeited
- 4.19e: It's the UIC who has to write up a report that goes to the league president after a protest
- 5.10: It's the UIC who judges when Time must be called and a game must be halted due to weather, darkness, injury
You really feel comfortable leaving those judgment calls and report writing to a 12yo?
It's obvious to me that what LL HQ is saying is that there should be an adult umpire on the field who is primarily responsible in dealing with thorny situations. Some of those situations are clearly designated in the rulebook for the UIC to handle, and a by-the-book person will say, "Well, then, if you want the adult to do that, you can never have a junior umpire behind the plate." So LL HQ tweaked the rule to make the adult the UIC, regardless where he/she is on the field.
That said, I still don't care for the rule. I would much prefer giving those responsibilities to a board member designated to be at the field for all games. If you have two juniors on the field umpiring the game, let the board member handle questions regarding field conditions, injured players, etc., and writing the reports that go to the league president for protests and forfeits.
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Nickname:
Kyle_
Posts: 8571
Member Since: 11/29/00
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:54am
Views: 166
Replies: 0
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I make all my kids write their own ejection/protest reports. It's part of our training. Now, they're not any great pieces of literature, to be sure, but it's worked. Plus it's a great lesson.
As for the field condition issues, we let the BoD member on duty handle those. Always have. I guess we can be more specific in our local rules as to who holds which responsibilities. That's a good idea Manny. We always have BoD on hand for every game, and they back up the Junior Umpires with these decisions. They're just not directly on the playing surface.
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Nickname:
CranberryBlue
Posts: 5083
Member Since: 5/24/00
Posted: 11/6/2009 4:21am
Views: 231
Replies: 0
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Hopefully it's time for the remaining LL's to stop taking pronouncements from the ivory tower in WP at face value.
"It has always been the policy of Little League that managers, coaches and umpires should be adults, because it is unwise to put children in charge of other children in a competitive activity such as baseball and softball. The reasons for that policy should be obvious to anyone."
Really? Not obvious to me - please explain.
Also, it places the adults – who would allow such a situation to occur – in a potentially dangerous position legally."
Ah - lawyers & insurance
With respect to allowing only children to umpire a game, it means they are responsible, by rule, for maintaining the discipline of the adult managers and coaches. Regardless of a league’s opinion of its current adult managers and coaches, anyone can see that such a situation also is grossly unfair to the child umpires in such a game."
Not me - we haven't had a problem.
Ok LL, Inc., come clean - WHAT HAPPENED? What bullsh|t logic did you use to (again) kill a fly with a cannon?
Basically they've admitted that some butthead managers/coaches cannot be reeled in by some spineless BoD so - per the usual modus operandi - instead of coming down like a ton of bricks on them they come up with this.
".....while not putting those children or the children in their care, in legal danger."
WHAT legal danger?
SOOOOOOOOO glad we're not LL anymore
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:23am
Views: 227
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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OK, so apparently they are afraid of the BoogeyMan -- I'm inferring no actual incident occurred.
What's "obvious" to LLB isn't obvious to us.
Umpires are in charge of the game.
The youth umpires are umpires.
Therefore the youth umpires are in charge of the game.
Their authority flows from the President to the Umpire-in-Chief to them, and the managers and coaches are told that in no uncertain terms.
You know what's "grossly unfair" ? Telling umpires who have trained that they aren't competent enough to handle a BASEBALL GAME.
Oh, grow up.
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Nickname:
733
Posts: 128
Member Since: 5/24/03
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:22am
Views: 213
Replies: 1
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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It's kind of amusing, telling, and a little disturbing that most of us seem to refer to our typically high-school aged umpires as "youth, junior, or young men and women", whereas HQ has decided to call them "children."
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Nickname:
FrankFi
Posts: 209
Member Since: 4/27/05
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:51am
Views: 211
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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I posted this on llumpires:
I'm feeling very bad about having to go home tonight and tell my teenagers that I have been "grossly unfair" to them (as Little League has stated) by allowing them to umpire without an adult ump holding their hands. I hope they aren't scarred for life by this terrible, unfair act of mine. I particularly hope my 6'
tall football player doesn't break down in tears about all the fear and anguish he suffered as he umpired 10 year olds and had to deal with coaches. I may have to turn myself in to the police to atone for this.
- the other Frank
"Proudly being grossly unfair to dozens of teenagers in WA D9" (like my new tag line?)
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Nickname:
NA_Umpires
Posts: 5157
Member Since: 1/02/04
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:11pm
Views: 182
Replies: 0
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Re: New LL Umpire Restrictions?
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On llumpires there have been a few suggestions on how to obey the letter of the law.
One suggestion (which may not really pass muster) is to designate some adult as UIC and give them a specific responsibility.
The suggestions have ranged from:“The UIC will position him/herself in the stands or viewing area and be responsible for making the call only if a batted ball hits the top of the fence in fair territory and it splits exactly in half and half remains on the field and the other half fall outside the fence.” to“The UIC will position him/herself in the stands or viewing area and be responsible for designating which runner is out when a runner or runners are tagged when more than one runner occupies a base.” Still, those are not going to really work if something DOES happen because they are patently ridiculous.
Nearly as ridiculous as the new regulation.
[ Modified 11/6/2009 6:12pm by NA_Umpires ]
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Quiz for the rookies out there!
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