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Nickname:
thekeyman
Posts: 2
Member Since: 6/08/09
Posted: 6/8/2009 1:53pm
Views: 632
Replies: 4
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Hidden Ball Trick
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During last night game the opposing team used a trick play. I am not sure of what the call is. The pitcher has the infield players come to the mound --- but dose not call time -- his foot is not on the rubber—with a runner on third the pitcher gives the ball to the third basemen. As soon as the runner leads off they tag them out. Although, I sent my runner and we scored but to me it seems to me this is deception and there for not allowed.
I look forward to hear your comments.
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Nickname:
bluezebra
Posts: 7154
Member Since: 5/26/00
Posted: 6/8/2009 8:33pm
Views: 616
Replies: 0
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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"During last night game the opposing team used a trick play. I am not sure of what the call is. The pitcher has the infield players come to the mound --- but dose not call time -- his foot is not on the rubber—with a runner on third the pitcher gives the ball to the third basemen."
1..Player does not call time, only an umpire may.
1a..How many 'third basemen' are there?
"As soon as the runner leads off they tag them out."
2..Who are 'they', and who are 'them'?
"Although, I sent my runner and we scored..."
3..I thought you said the runner was tagged out.
"...but to me it seems to me this is deception and there for not allowed."
4..If the pitcher is on the mound: "OBR RULE 8.05a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk."
"I look forward to hear your comments."
5..You got 'em.
Bob
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Nickname:
bobjenkins
Posts: 1725
Member Since: 5/10/00
Posted: 6/9/2009 7:23am
Views: 604
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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If the ball remained live the entire time, then the play is legal unless:
FED: The pitcher is within approximately 5' of the rubber
NCAA: The pitcher is on the dirt portionof the mound
OBR: The pitcher is on or astride the pitcher's plate.
If the above happens, then it's a balk.
If the ball became dead during any of this (or was dead at the start of it), then it's still a dead ball and "nothing" happened.
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Nickname:
oldhardballer
Posts: 1046
Member Since: 9/10/01
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:03am
Views: 521
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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Why would any Umpire allow the entire infield come to the mound without a requested time out? If, in fact, this did happen, then it is deffinately intent to deceive the BR and contitutes a Balk since Pitcher remained on the mound.
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Nickname:
radwaste50
Posts: 43
Member Since: 7/01/04
Posted: 6/22/2009 1:15pm
Views: 508
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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oldhardballer wrote
"Why would any Umpire allow the entire infield come to the mound without a requested time out? If, in fact, this did happen, then it is deffinately intent to deceive the BR and contitutes a Balk since Pitcher remained on the mound."
Why would I call time if not requested, not my job to protect the defense. If the entire infield is there why is R3 not coming home?
If he is on the mound you are correct on the balk, if he is behind the mound then no problem. Why is the runner leading before the pitcher is on the mound?
Do not get to wrapped up on the intent to decieve that is not a violation to decieve in an illegal manner is a balk.
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Nickname:
oldhardballer
Posts: 1046
Member Since: 9/10/01
Posted: 6/22/2009 1:45pm
Views: 505
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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Radwaste, one of the umpires' responsibilities is to "Keep the Game Moving". Allowing the entire infield to have a pow wow on the mound without requesting a time out is, IMO, not doing this. I would not allow it.
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Nickname:
bobjenkins
Posts: 1725
Member Since: 5/10/00
Posted: 6/23/2009 7:08am
Views: 503
Replies: 0
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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"I would not allow it. "
You would be over-officious, and wrong. A team is allowed to have such a defensive conference. Usually, the ball is dead during such a conference, but it's not required. And, either way, it makes no difference to the umpire's duty to "Keep the game moving."
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Nickname:
Rich__742
Posts: 37
Member Since: 10/22/06
Posted: 10/14/2009 3:21pm
Views: 182
Replies: 0
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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Your description of the play really doesnt make sense, if the pitcher was on the mound without the ball it should have been a balk..... And if the runner was off the base and 3b has the ball how could he have scored?
My team does the hidden ball trick on occasion. We have had the most success after a double or a triple the infielder who gets the ball and will walk over to the pitcher and fake a hand off and walk back to the bag and see if the runner comes off the base.
Our keys to making it work are:
1. The catcher tells the plate ump to watch the base where the play is on. Otherwise they may not see it happen.
2. The pitcher has to stay away from the mound if he does not have the ball or it is a balk. (rules vary on this one).
3. If time is called forget it, it is over.
It is pretty amazing how unaware some teams are. We did it twice to a team in the same game. They went nuts both times, but they had nobody to blame but themselves.
Some people call it bush or whatever but I think it is part of the game. And funny as hell when it works....
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Nickname:
bigdave__8
Posts: 18
Member Since: 3/28/03
Posted: 11/25/2009 8:21pm
Views: 94
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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The FED rule is this: Pitcher shall not be within approx. 5 ft. of the rubber without the ball (6.2.5). Penalty - BALK. PRO rule is not anywhere on the dirt area of the mound.
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Nickname:
bobjenkins
Posts: 1725
Member Since: 5/10/00
Posted: 11/30/2009 7:41am
Views: 83
Replies: 1
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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"PRO rule is not anywhere on the dirt area of the mound. "
NOT True. I gave the correct answer 5.5 months ago.
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Nickname:
bigdave__8
Posts: 18
Member Since: 3/28/03
Posted: 12/13/2009 6:11am
Views: 37
Replies: 0
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Re: Hidden Ball Trick
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Sorry, Bob - I mis-spoke (mis-wrote) myself.
OBR is 'on or astride the rubber'. I had a brain-fart and was thinking of NCAA which is 'the dirt area of the mound'. Dah!
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Windup vs Set position
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