Have many of you experienced what we have in our local league with a decline in ability in league ball? Many of the best players in our league are opting for Travel Ball. We have and won't go back to league play. Playing 60-65 games over 4 1/2 months beats the politics and weak play in our league, at least.
We will start in mid-late March and end in late July. Playing in 14 tournaments with a few DHs. Age group is 11s.
We have a couple of tournaments that have a 6-game guarantee. Usually play 3 weekends a month.
Kids don't complain. They get time off and when we have a weekend off, we're off. No practice.
In my area, it's rare that kid doesn't play in the local LL during the season. We have a pretty nice facility, that's very well run. The skill stays pretty high.
From a baseball developmental perpective I would consisder this a lost season. Like a kid with a broken leg. The reason is that you get better with practicing and you have none. Bad habits are reinforced, corrective measures are abandoned, and reps non-existant.
I always have to chuckle when those abandoning the league for travel ball opine as to how weak the league has become as their justification.
Going to a 6 game tournament over the weekend is nuts. The parents have the kids convinced that they are having fun where in actuality they are working just as hard as any kid here in Mexico but not getting paid. Ton Sawyer's picket fence all over again.
This team's format is about the adults, not the kids. Enjoy.
Classic example of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
"Ability has declined"--Why?
Maybe.... because the kids with talent are gone....contributing to the decline.
Will the fun, and opportunity to learn and play organized baseball, for kids with average or less than average talent gone away too? It would appear so!
"Dead bodies" left behind---when and if the league does fold with the departure of the talented players.
The situation speaks of self-serving parents....[and their kids.]
""Ability has declined"--Why?
Maybe.... because the kids with talent are gone....contributing to the decline."
This is kind of where I was going.
Take all the more talented kids so you don't have to deal with "Johnnie Average" and sure, your league's overall talent will decline.
Stay around and form the special community bonds that league ball offers, and yeah...your neighborhood league will do fine.
As a coach or parent, you have to decide what you want. Do you want to stay grounded in the community, and give back to all?
Or... is it ok at 11 to have kids help you chase the glory, and leave the things behind that league ball can offer everybody?
Kids have plenty of time to chase "The Dream." The question is.... Is it their dream or the parents and coaches?
Personally, my kid has done both. He played league ball in the spring, and tournament ball in the summer and fall. We have a longer season out here, but that is the route chosen.
Take all the more talented kids so you don't have to deal with "Johnnie Average" and sure, your league's overall talent will decline.
My experience has been that if a bunch of talented players leave for travel, others in the league will step up and, given the opportunity to shine, will shine.
The real problem is that quite often the parents of those talented kids are the better coaches and volunteers in the league, and that's what hurts.
I don't talk much here about the LL/Travel split that our league experienced, since I didn't want to air any dirty laundry. And I still won't. But I will say that our local travel organization puts on a large annual tournament, with 8-16 teams from every age group from 10-15, and they do a great job. If they applied that same energy for the good of 300 players instead of the 70-75 in their organization, our local LL and BR programs would be a LOT stronger. And that strength would come from the parents, not the players.
Never said it was 6 games in a weekend. The two we are in are 6 games over 4 or 5 day period.
I always find it interesting when there's a debate about league ball vs. Travel ball that many come down on Travel ball. We've done both and there is no comparison in the level of ability between players in both.
I know there are some outstanding youth leagues in this country, but there isn't one where we live I can tell you that.
Not contesting your personal experience Rich. Obviously no harm done in your case; and your comment about the better coaches and volunteers leaving does and would hurt.
Good point made!!
However, I "zeroed-in" on your words "given the opportunity to shine, will shine."
My concern is the "opportunity to shine" goes south if the departures-[players, and as you stated--good coaches and volunteers]-results in the demise of the organization; or at minimum, that level of play within the organization.
The less talented kids, and remaining coaches and/or volunteers, becoming the "Dead bodies" left behind.
i think travel is viewed differently in our area... as an option to play a higher level. the recreation leagues are still strong at the youth levels. does that mean all the "best" play travel - certainly not. the choice is left to the individual (or parents - yes i'm sure there are those who "push" - but not all.)
kind of like jeter's response... don't lump all travel in one "perspective" - either negative or positive.
we play in a league just like the recreation teams - 2 games per week - about 20 game season with playoffs - around 23-25 games total.
the difference is we'll play 5 tournaments on the weekends - all local but 1. the 1 "far" tournament is 2-3 hours away - parents agreed one overnighter would be fun and affordable and allow the kids to play baseball... but also hit the pool and relax together. the schedule is 1 tourney in Apr, 1 in May, 1 in Jun, and 2 in Jul (after the regular season is over). these add another 20-30 games. so in reality... we play one tournament a month extra during the regular season versus a recreation team.
we're not headed to omaha, williamsport, florida, carolinas, california or arizona. we don't have tournaments scheduled every weekend.
on the flip side... recreation ball offers a high level of competition for the "younger" players in each league. travel players typically play their own age group (unless they are very good and play up). however, recreation players start in a league (say bronco league age 11 and 12) competing against kids that are their age or one year older. then their next year (age 12) they compete against kids their age or 1 yr younger. so that first year offers alot of competion for recreation players.
In our situation, if there was no Travel Ball, the league ability would be pretty decent. But take 22 players out of a league that will have maybe 6 teams in your age group and there's not must talent left.
We have asked our our son if he wanted to play league ball the last 2 years and each time he has said no. It was his decision.
And all this crap about living out a parents dream, that always comes up when Travel Ball is discussed.
Do I think my son will make the Majors? No
Do I think my son will play at North Carolina or Arizona State or Miami in college baseball? No
Do I think Travel ball will prepare him to be a very good high school player? Yes, I do.
I agree in Arizona LL is going down hill fast in most areas. There are still a couple of leagues that are growing and playing high quality ball, but overall, it is getting worse. My son is only 2 years out of Majors. Coaches used to play travel to get ready for the LL season. Now they bypass it to play tournaments. There used to be very few 10-12 year old tournaments during LL season. Now there are tournaments every weekend if you wanted to play. The better coaches and players are just not coming back after 11U. It is non competitive until AS. My son didn't really care about LL when he was 12. The league president and future AS coach asked him to play. So he did. Part time. In 14 games he made 2 outs. One was a FC that he would have beat out. It wasn't competitive. But he did have fun being the big man on campus.
65 games in 4 months seems like a lot even for HS or college kids, never less 11yr olds. I wonder if you could cut out 6 tourneys and go fishing or camping 3 of those weekends. I bet your kids will remember that more so then the 6 extra tourneys there going to.
We are lucky here in the NW, we have a league like soccer where they have 3 different skill levels for each age group. They leagues have tryouts our form their own team and the kids play at the level they are. Its a 20 game schedule with weekends off so you can play tourneys if you feel the need. We will add in 6 tourneys to give our kids 45 or so games total over 4 months.
ProudDad: Trying to understand YOUR position; and, after your last post I believe I do.
However, in your last post you stated..."In our situation,if there was no Travel Ball, the league ability would be pretty decent. But take 22 players out of a league that will have maybe 6 teams in your age group and there is not much talent left."
Your OP subject leads the reader to believe the players left for Travel Ball because of the "Decline of league ball."
Your above comment lends one to believe the decline was caused by 22 talented players leaving.
So which came first? The decline of the league? Or, the 22 players leaving--resulting in the decline of the league?
If the latter--as I gather from your last post, read my first post again.
I am the first to admit that the level of play in Travel Ball (where a team can hand-pick the players and there are no boundaries) is better than any local rec league (it would be hard not to be).
The part that I always find amusing is that the majority of these "new elite" players learned their skills in the rec leagues they now trash.
Around here, many (probably most) of the better players play LL and Travel Ball.
The two can co-exist and both can prosper.
Frank,
To partially answer your question, kids that play travel and rec, get to a point where they enjoy the more competitive travel. When you are pitching, it is nice to have a routine ball be routine. It is nice to have other kids on your team that can hit. It is nice to play with other kids that are as good and competitive as you are. All kids start in rec. Some stay and some move up. At least around hear, most of the better players and coaches move to full time travel by 12U.
[Use to love to go to Phoenix and Tucson on business...except in July and August. Temp hit 120 degress my first trip to Phoenix in JuLY]
Anyway...as a long-time little leaguer, in many capacities, I have no problem with local travel ball per se.
My three grandsons played TB adfter graduating little league majors level.
Higher levels of LL were not available within their jurisdiction.
I was a Charter Member-[14 years ago]- in organizing a local tournament....still alive and well....that welcomed travel teams, among others.
My problem???
When a litttle league entity "suffers" when players, coaches, and volunteers bail-out, citing "politics" and "declined" ability....possibly having been part of the very problem(s) they want to escape from.
And as noted in my prior posts, leaving "dead bodies" in their wake.
"Do I think Travel ball will prepare him to be a very good high school player? Yes, I do."
Playing travel ball on a 50/70 field does not prepare a kid for high school ball. It doesn't matter if a kid plays LL or travel before hitting the 60/90 field. Before the open bases debate breaks out, it doesn't take long in 13U to learn this stuff.
My sons have played both and now are currently in a more competitive "elite" team or a tournament team. I am also on the Board of Directors for our rec league because I want it to be better and I want to work for to make it better. I find it very difficult to make changes because :
1. it's not fair
2. somebody's feelings will get hurt
3. We've never done it that way so why change now.
By playing on an elite team, I know that my sons are playing with other boys who will show up for practices, show up for games and will usually put forth their best effort for fear of being replaced. In the rec league (I coached for several years), we were lucky to have 6 players at a practice. Bottom line is - there is nothing wrong with choosing a more competitive league because their is nothing wrong with raising competitive kids who know they have to work hard to succeed.
been there done that - nothing elite about it - it is a word - just like rec - fact is it is a little more competitive and at this point in their lives, it is the best option available.
At nine and ten my son played Ripken in the spring and community based tournament travel in the summer. He played about 45 games from April through the first week of August. The tournament team started practice at least twice a week a month before tournaments.
At eleven and twelve he played LL after we moved within the boundaries of a strong LL. The league was very competitive. The all-star teams were very competitive. He also played in a Sunday dooubleheader travel league. Between LL, all-stars and travel he played about 55 games from April through the first week of August.
Two years after leaving a group of people took over the board that didn't like the reputation the league had as very competitive. I guess it was all the district championship banners decorating the park that bothered them.
To equalize the situation, the teams no longer got team uniforms and names like Yankees, Red Sox, etc. They got colored tee shirts with the name of the league. They were the green team, the red team, etc. The league implemented CBO.
Two years later (I was told) registration is down 30%. I wonder which players are the 30% (sarcasm). Five years ago this league (8 teams) was so strong it had two very successful all-star teams.
Guess you have to be 11 and playing on a 60/90 field for you to think differently TG.
One of above posters is right about leagues not wanting to bend a little.
Basically that 6-team league we have, even if you had the 22 travel players (all also wouldn't play in the league because some are from out of our area) it still would be way less than playing Travel ball. You have kids that say they want to learn and then don't listen or miss several practices. Every team had 3 or 4 players who were very poor no matter how much time you spent with them.
Most teams had 4 or 5 pretty good players who have left to play Travel ball. They made the right decision. I guess all these Travel teams around the country and there are thousands, are wrong.
"Guess you have to be 11 and playing on a 60/90 field for you to think differently TG"
A kid doesn't have to be eleven. But he needs to be on the big field. It can wait until thirteen. I've seen faar too many 46/60 and 50/70 studs not get past middle school ball to be impressed with small field accomplishments.
TG,
We have argued the point of the small field vs. big field many times on this site and others. We will agree to disagree. But baseball is a game of building skills. The younger you start the better. It is done worldwide in almost any sport you want to pick. For some reason it is looked down on here. Mechanics and talent are the key to success and not many kids learn good mechanics in a rec league. There isn't enough time. A good travel team WILL make a kid better. Period. What he has in talent will decide how far he goes. But if you don't play at the best level, the kids that do are going to beat you out for your spot. I know that all the players on my local HS varsity have a huge travel background. Go and watch a freshman tryout, you can pick out the rec vs. travel guys in a second. Success at the best levels breeds confidence and that is greatly needed if you are going to be successful in baseball. Travel kids have batted with bases loaded many times, they have had to turn a double play with bases loaded many times, they have had to make game ending plays many times and are a lot more cool under pressure or they don't make the team. They have had to produce to keep their spots on the field and in the batting order.
The majority of your best players come from last years pool of great players. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.
And last but not least, it doesn't matter what you do until you are 17-18 if you want to move on after HS, but if all you do is play rec you will have a very hard time making a good HS team in the Phoenix area. How the heck are going to show what you can do if you never get on the field because the kid you are competing with has a 1000 at bats more against great pitching and has fielded 1000's of more ground balls?
Passion is the key to success. Without it all the talent and expensive PIs mean nothing.
"A good travel team WILL make a kid better."
At what age? It is silly to think that traveling all over the place at 8 playing 100 games a yr has ANY relevance to later success. It is just delusional parents.
I had a player who didn't even start playing until he was 14! His family lived out of the country in the mid East oil business. When they came back he wanted to play baseball. His dad could afford the best instructor in town. The kid worked like no other earning the nickname ##### "the hardest working man in baseball" He was not a superiorly gifted athlete. He played 4 yrs at TCU.
IOW the idea that a kid must play travel ball from the womb or not have a chance to play HS is absurd. He won't make it because he did and he won't not make it because he didn't. But the folks who run teams, charge for lessons, and put on tournaments will surely make you believe it and take your $$$$.
With my videos you can learn everything necessary to teach your son how to work to be the best that he can be. I have 17 who made MLB, 60 pro, and over 250 to college. Don't drink the Koolaid and spend thousands on travel and PI's. When my videos cost 1/2 what one lesson costs.
"But the folks who run teams, charge for lessons, and put on tournaments will surely make you believe it and take your $$$$."
They are just trying to make money just like you.
"With my videos you can learn everything necessary to teach your son how to work to be the best that he can be. I have 17 who made MLB, 60 pro, and over 250 to college. Don't drink the Koolaid and spend thousands on travel and PI's. When my videos cost 1/2 what one lesson costs." Sounds like the same pitch the guys charging for lessons use.
No disrespect intended but you can't criticize others then follow up by trying to sell your own kool-aid, even if it a better product.
You're misintrepting what I'm saying. I'm talking about the irrelevance of where a preteen player plays his ball.
I understand the importance of playing at the best possible level starting on the 60/90. My son played USSSA Majors full time starting at 13U. He'll be the first opening day sophomore on the varsity since the last two soph travel players six and seven years ago. There may be a freshman starting on varsity which no one can remember happening. This kid also plays USSSA majors. I believe travel bought my son a varsity spot a year early along with the other player referenced.
The rest of the varsity players play Junior Legion, then Legion which is better than rec but not travel level. The kids who only play rec ball never make varsity. A majority never make JV.
When kids are preteens they do learn important basics. But it doesn't prove anything until they prove they have the ability to execute on the large field.
Being a mediocre talent on a travel team does not make a good high school player. It just means he's a mediocre kid playing travel. It doesn't matter if he's full of confidence from travel if he's mediocre. Ultimately it's about talent.
I've seen plenty of parents who thought their preteen travel studs were on the way to stardom who flopped. I've seen 14U travel studs struggle by 16U. It's when puberty levels the playing field and they're not man-children versus the competition anymore.
Well said Danbam....Travel ball is only going to help a player.
Starting lineup for high school my child feeds into starts 8 kids who played a high level of Travel Ball and 3 of top 4 pitchers are from Travel group. Enough said. End of conversation.
Those boys may not end up being studs in a year or two, but you know what, they are hands down the best of the bunch right now and there's little to believe they won't get better.
Last time to try to make my point. The starters on the powerhouses in Phoenix all have talent, hard work ethics, and plenty of travel experience. You have to have all three to get on the field. The talent to play, the work ethic to make you the best, and the experience of playing a lot of games against the best talent around to get on the field. Two out of the three may get you on the team. But you need all three to play. Anyone that tells you talent is all you need is full of shinola. Potential doesn't get it done. If you wait until you are 14 to play high level travel, you won't make the high level team. Nobody has time for projects. I've seen a lot of players fall out of major ball in the last two years. I haven't seen anybody show up and dominate out of rec. Heck I haven't seen anybody show up out of rec that can even compete at 14U majors. Rec kids rarely make the team in HS. My sons HS just had final cuts. Not one rec only kid made the team. Not one. As you get older, their are fewer spots to play, why would you want to give someone else the advantage of experience from playing against the best?
And coach, how many guys were like that example? One? There are always exceptions.
Let me chime in here from a different perspective. If a player of 8 years of age is destined to go through the division I college level then certain things are in play. Because of his abilities he will most likely be in travel ball but travel ball will never be the reason he goes on.
1. He has the innate physical abilities or will develop them as his body grows. Without this criteria he is not destined to do on.
2. Once it is determined that he has the criteria above the better his coaching, the quicker his learned skills will advance. Playing is not where he will get better, practice is. Learned skills can be picked up rapidly at any age. Think about college and professional players learning a new position, any new position.
3. Once this player hits the full sized field it is time to refine those skills as they apply to the game as it is now played. No more little kids trick plays. Two things happen at the same time. The full sized field culls out those without the innate ability and puberty eliminates the advantages of early bloomers. Those who have dedicated immense time and money on skill development prior to the full sized field will merely reach their peak potential earlier than those who have not. The advantage they have coming in at that level will disappear as the others catch up in the first season.
It is true that in strong programs the coaching staff at the HS level will not take time to teach the fundamentals to kids trying out. But the first year of the full sized field play is not at the HS level and learned skills can be picked up if a player has the innate ability.
One of the biggest weaknesses that I see in HS coaches is their inability to differentiate between innate ability and refined skills. They get fooled for a year.
My view is the kids playing on reduced sized fields should play for the joy of the game and learn as many skills as they can. If they have the ability to continue onto the full sized diamond, that is the time to play with and against the best players available. Whatever they do up to that time has no relevence. An experienced HS coach will not care what you accomplished in munchkin ball but will only care about what you bring to the table now and for him.
To go on beyond college ball, as the COACH says, is dependent on your mental part of the game, your passion, and your ability to hit effectively with a wooden bat.
The game begins for real on the full sized diamond and everything you did before that is history. Play is over and work begins.
"If you wait until you are 14 to play high level travel, you won't make the high level team."
I didn't suggest waiting until fourteen. Seventh grade (typically 13U is soon enough.
You're mistaking the difference between in your area of most talented players playing preteen travel based on the desire to do so and making varsity someday, versus needing to play preteen travel and making varsity. If these most talented kids started playing travel at thirteen when the transition to the 60/90 takes place, they would still be the varsity players.
I know you have this sunbelt bias, which is also a bunch of bunk, but I'll give another example that will suit the argument. I know of plenty of kids who did not play preteen travel in California and Florida who are now college players. Even from the view of a sun belt snob, Arizona is not more unique than California and Florida.
Ultimately it comes down to talent, not if and where a kid played preteen ball on a mini field. The kids you're citing would still be the high school players even if they played LL until they were twelve.
"looking though the pages of the Lindys 09 preview, all but 1 of the top 10 HS prospects are from the sunbelt states."
So only ten players play D1 ball. It must be hard to get a game going. But this isn't the argument. I will NEVER buy into 50/70 baseball being a must to play high school. It's rediculous. All that's happening is these kids are choosing to play travel. They would still be in the high school players coming out of LL. They are the talented players.
TG,
That's the point. They wouldn't play HS. They would be passed up by kids that played travel. Do kids drop out along the way? Of course. The best stay. There is a lot of talent in the sunny states. A lot of kids play ball. Only the best make it. Kids that start travel at 13 are way behind the curve. I have seen it many times. They can't compete and they quit the game. I haven't seen one kid move from LL to a top level travel team at 13. They are filled with kids that have played travel at 9,10,11, and 12. They don't make the team and are always behind the curve. They may play low level travel. But that is glorified rec ball. They aren't going to make it. A kid needs to have all three things going for him. Ability, skills, and experience. Passion is a given. They are all driven or they never play past LL.
It may be different in other parts of the country, but not here.
Anybody remember this powerhouse team? the Redwings? From what i've seen and heard most of them went right to varsity their freshman year.
Andre Real was one of the youngest of this team, and word is/was he is going to play varsity as a freshmen for Orange Lutheran Lancers. He is the player top right in photo. So for him and most of those others that played all those years with the RedWings im sure it really helped them out more then if they just played in their rec.leagues. NOT bashing Rec.ball, imo, live/learn it your own way, your choise.
Chalk: I don't know anything about this team but I would guess they only accept the best of the best from a wide geographical area. These are the players with the greatest degree of innate ability and it only figures they would go on in the game had they played on this team or not. It is the selection of the talent that made this team great, not the other way around.
Here's the point I have been trying to get you to figure out. Equal talent or close, what's the tie breaker? Experience. If you have a phenom competing with another phenom, who is going to win the spot? The guy who has played travel. He has been tested many times. He has recieved superior coaching. The other guy will be potential. The experienced travel guy will get the spot. Starting at 13 puts you 2-3 years behind the learning curve. They may equal out as juniors or seniors, but what coach is going to replace a phenom 2 year starter with someone else? Better learn another spot and bump somebody else out.
Good luck in getting a selection of this talent on one team in Rec.ball. Thats the point i'll make.
Why does everybody even try to compare the two?
Johnny come lately rolling in the slow lane all of a sudden wants to jump in the fast tract? if it is in socal? johnny slow lane will get "figure out" fast!
The players went to their different school once they got to the HS years, just like some of the players on our team, some are/will be from different HS that will play against each others HS teams, if there is going to be any more HS ball in the future.
How much do they get to play once there? Dont know?
Where are they now? Dont know? im not a scout.
But when they were coming up they sure could play as a TB team. And yes some did play also in their Rec.leagues.
Best scenario: You have a highly competitive and well run rec. league and you have a Travel team that plays 6-8 tournaments.
My point when I started this was that in our area, the league management stinks (self-serving decisions) and the talent pool is not high. That's why for us, Travel Ball is the best way to go.
These kids don't look like preteen 50/70 players. They look older. Thank you for supporting my point. If these are preteen players they're cherry picked early bloomers.
Eary bloomers that are starting on varsity as freshman. Hard to class them as early bloomers, isn't it? I thought that early bloomers fall by the wayside and the rest of the kids take over? Doesn't happen that way.
You;re really flailing away at this one to validate the KoolAid. When picking a travel team from a wide region, anyone with an eye for talent can select the kids with a bright future, which has nothing to do with the percentage of early bloomers who fall by the side of the road.
Our LL team won districts and was section runnerup to a team that went to the LLWS. It was probably the second best team in the state (everyone plays LL or Ripken here). Back then I quietly told a parent only four of these kids have high school potential. They were all athletes. All are now playing high school sports. But only those four are still playing baseball. Now if we take an entire metro area, do you think I could pick out the early bloomers with the best chance of becoming high school baseball players.
What would have shocked people is I would not have chosen the most dominant player in the area. I could see it was all about his 5'8" size and strength when he was twelve.
Don't tell me. You need to keep convincing yourself of the need to play preteen travel ball. You've drank the KoolAid. I'm done with the discussion.
They were preteen 50/70 Redwing players at one time. This photo is at the end of their run before most went on to HS, if that is what you are posting about.
And your most welcome if i helped support your point.
It is about talent over all, i know of alot of kids who played both travel/rec that didnt make freshmen, alot of people like drinking the kool-aid in both worlds.
You're wrong. I know someone whose son played LL in the Phoenix area. He started playing travel at 13U. He has offers from several D1's. It's about talent, not preteen 50/70 travel ball. You've bought into a load of Kool Aid.
One out of how many TG? If you have the one that made it without, you also have a few thousand that didn't make it. One kid doesn't cut it. I see 70 or so at our HS that needed it and wouldn't have made it without travel. The coaches expect to see a polished(or as near as possible) product when they get on the field. Coaches need to win now.
Just to make sure you're on the same page I've been the entire time, we're taking about the need to play preteen 50/70 travel to make the high school team.
I don't know any high school teams that need 13U players to win. Players coming off the 50/70 field haven't mastered the 60/90 field. But they have three years to do so before they are high school sophs and possibly ready for varsity.
As Daque said, talent makes the team. A team doesn't make talent. And I'll repeat myself, you're confusing high school players desire to play travel when they were preteeners versus the need to play travel. Their desire to play has skewed your perspective. If all the high school players wore Nike cleats in preteen ball, would that create a requirment for future preteen baseball players to wear Nike's?
People/parents werent happy with all their local leagues RULES AND REGS? and the political BS/mess?
They werent satisfied with eating a Baby Ruth all the time, even though it was good? they wanted more to satisfy their hunger, how would you like to go to that vending machine with that candy craving and nothing but Baby Ruths? all the time?
But wait this vending machine has an assortment of candy! Oh wait? is that a Snickers Bar!
What makes this vending machine special?
The assortment of different things to choose from, kepts you coming back? Still enjoy having that Baby Ruth, but when it gets down to satisfying that craving that Snickers bar does the job even for the TB tee ballers? to young imo.
TG: How do you think you get prepared to play on a 60/90 field? you play on a 50/70 field when you're 11 and 12.
Nobody is/should claim that being a star at 11 or 12 will mean you will be a high school star! But I will say being a star at 11 or 12 is a good start to at least being a good high school player.
"...being a star at 11 or 12 is a good start to at least being a good high school player."
The two are unrelated. Stardom on the less than full sized diamond is in no way predictive of even making the HS team, much less being a good player.
How many skilled but small F4's of all star or travel teams fail to make the HS cut because they can't make the plays on full sized bases or get the ball out of the infield when hitting? How many of these star pitchers who dominate now are only batting practice? And the list goes on.
But this much is true. The players who are destined to go on in the game are either late bloomers with the necessary innate ability or do indeed dominate on the smaller diamonds because of innate ability and not because they are bigger and stronger. It is near impossible to predict who will go on and who will not prior to age 16. By that age most are no longer on the smaller diamonds.
Kids who are no good playing on a travel team? I am sure it happens. Being good or bad are relative terms.
My point is that a kid who is good on his travel team may well not be good as a HS player and you will not know until you see them o the full sized diamond.
Kids on the small diamond are too young to predict what they will be like when they step up on the full sized diamond.
I think this horse has stopped twitching. I suggest you talk to a father of a HS player thiking about moving on to college ball and get his views. He has been there and done that. He has been where you are.
just to add... if a league only has a couple teams (5, 6...)... putting together a travel team definitely hurts the league.
if a league has 16, 17, 18 league teams... that league could put 1 or 2 travel teams together and it wouldn't hurt the league at all.
so it comes down to numbers... and basically the population of the area you live in. we're fortunate that we fall in the latter group - so there isn't any league vs travel hostility... only the decision of which to try-out for.
How old are your kids? TG, Daq and I have been through it and know what we are talking about.
Nothing that happens before the big field is in any way a harbinger of future success on the big field. It is not necessary to play travel ball on the small field to make the HS team. Gee, neither of my sons did and both were HS All Americans, played major D1, and one is still playing pro ball. Both were 5'1 90 lbs at 12 and I assure you no one was predicting future greatness.I have seen many small field legends who didn't play HS and many others blossom.
I can make a case that playing 100 games a year prepuberty retards development. Who says travel coaches are better?
In the long run that which separates the pack is passion given a certain level of innate ability. It can't be coached. It can't be bought. It matters not whether you played at Cooperstown. Prepuberty travel ball with the idea that it is the only path to glory is a delusion foisted by the entrepenuirs who prey upon the Koolaid drinking parents.
"My son's 9U and 10U travel teams were from his Ripken league. We saw it as extended play rather than building to something bigger. At eleven and twelve his LL all-stars teams would have done the same had they not competed into August. "
If this isn't travel then what is? You preach that pre teen travel is a waste of time for everyone on multiple boards but you did the same thing for your son. Whether you go across town or across the country it is travel. When a group of parents put a team together to play outside of rec to get more games in and better competition it is travel. How do think travel started? It doesn't matter what you call it. It was 10-11U travel.
I have no idea why you are so against it when you did the same thing for your son.
I posted this on the HSBBWEB and was too lazy to retype it. I really don't get the hypocritical aspect of this. It really doesn't make sense.
"If this isn't travel then what is? You preach that pre teen travel is a waste of time for everyone on multiple boards but you did the same thing for your son."
Here's the mistake you made. The debate is you insisting travel ball is necessary to make the high school team. I said it's not necessary. I said it has no impact on playing high school ball. I never thought any of the rec all-stars travel ball my son played from 9-12 would have any bearing on making the high school team. I have always said success on a small field is not a look into the future of a high school player. I've said it doesn't matter is a kid plays LL or open bases in his preteen years. The LL'ers catch up quickly when they hit the 60/90. I've said the journey really starts on the 60/90 at 13U, where I believe in travel if the local rec programs are weak (ours are terrible). I've also said by high school it's about talent, not where a kid played when he was little and prepubescent.
At nine and ten after the Ripken season my son played in local LL or Ripken based tournaments. It added 25 games to the summer. It was just more baseball, not training for high school. At eleven and twelve he played in a 16 game USSSA AA Sunday doubleheader league with a bunch of prospective all-stars in preparation for all-stars. Preparing for LL all-stars is hardly preparation for high school.
To be honest, when my son first played youth sports, demonstrated athletic ability, agility and a passion for baseball I figured he would play high school ball if he continued to love the game. Why? Genetics and innate ability. He's the son of two college athletes. Any further than high school will depend on a lot of desire, continued passion for the game and tremendous work ethic.
Say what you want TG, The fact is that you have spent years giving people crap for playing travel at the pre teen level and saying how it doesn't matter. It mattered enough to you to start your own team. It mattered enough to you because you knew that increased games and competition will make your son better and keep him interested in baseball. Keep on spinning those wheels. The only difference between you and the other parents out there is nothing. You not only played travel but you coached the team. It was important enough for you to spend the hours and $$ it takes. Being the manager takes about 10 times the amount of energy, time and money than just playing. Nobody does that much work for something that doesn't matter.
There's no Gotcha. There's only your spin to validate your drinking the KoolAid. By the way, why didn't you make this post on the other board with a bunch of dads of college and pro players who have not taken your side of the debate.
I have never said playing preteen travel is a waste of time. I've said it lacks value in developing high school players since so much changes when the kids hit the 60/90 and when puberty levels the playing field.
I did not make the team when my son was 9U and 10U. It was a league town sponsored team comprised of the Ripken all-stars. The 11U and 12U teams I created were to help the players compete in the LL all-star torunament. I hardly equate preparing kids for LL all-stars to be the equivilant of preparing for high school ball.
As for the money the first two teams were $100 a season. The second two were $125 a season. I'll bet you spent that last year. I'll bet you had your son play close to or more games than those four teams cummulatively played.
Whether I coached the team is irrelevant. I coached every rec and travel softball team my daughter played. Until this year when my son will be playing on an established elite team, I've coached every rec and travel baseball team he's played.
Maybe you coach for the selfish reason of developing your son. I coach because I love teaching and coaching the game (softball, baseball or basketball). I was a baseball coach before I had kids. I've hung out in basketball gyms all day Saturday running leagues because I love the game. I've run free season long Friday afternoon softball and baseball clinics for less talented preteen players who were close to giving up. When I was commissioner of the rec leagues my goal was to keep them coming back. It's not a demand when you love something.
When I show up at former player's sporting events sometimes parents are surprised. I tell them once I've had them for a season they're my kids too. Tomorrow night I'll be attending a high school district basketball playoff game of a kid I coached in past years.
My biggest coaching thrill is not anything my kids have accomplished. My biggest thrill is the kid who invited me to his football NLI press conference and said he wouldn't be sitting there if not for me being the coach who turned his life around. And I never coached him in football.
You just keep finding ways to validate drinking the KoolAid.
"I did not make the team when my son was 9U and 10U. It was a league town sponsored team comprised of the Ripken all-stars. The 11U and 12U teams I created were to help the players compete in the LL all-star torunament. I hardly equate preparing kids for LL all-stars to be the equivilant of preparing for high school ball."
Which way was it? Did you have your kid on a team and did you start a pre teen team or not. The answer is yes by the way. You can say whatever you want, but actions speak louder than words.
And I was the one who posted the link to this thread. If anyone wants to read it they can. I don't feel the need to repost everything.
Keep spinning that story. I could find a couple of hundred times where you said pre teen travel is worthless and means nothing and is a waste of time and money on this site or the Web. Everyone who comes here or there knows your position. Yet you did the same thing.
You tell yourself whatever you want to keep drinking the KoolAid. You say it's necessary to play preteen travel to make the high school team. I've said from day one preteen ball has nothing to do with making the high school team. My son played preteen travel after or around the rec programs to get in some additional ball, nothing more. It had nothing to do with making the high school team. If it did, how come ten of the twelve on the 9U and 10U teams are no longer playing and eight of the twelve on the 11U and 12U teams are no longer playing.
My son found a picture online of the 11U team yesterday. The four who are still playing were 5'3", 4'10" (my son), 5'0" and 4'10". Three are sophs and one a junior. They're now 6'3", 6'1", 5'10" (now 4.5 40 and strongest kid on the team) and 5'9" (now 4.55 40/chubby slug when he was eleven). Kids who did not move up in baseball were 5'8", 5'8", and 5'7" at eleven. A stud 4'8" speedster couldn't get the ball out of the infield when he got to the 60/90. He could outrun anything on a small field. He fielded like Brooks Robinson. He struggled to get the ball across the field on the 60/90.
Every single kid on the 11U and 12U teams are high school athletes. Most just weren't going to be high school baseball players. It was obvious to me even then. We weren't grooming them for high school. We were gromming them for LL all-stars.
The 9U and 10U teams had two early bloomer pitchers who dominated. Neither one was dominant by age twelve. They also weren't much bigger than when they were ten.
I've said from day one preteen ball has nothing to do with making the high school team. You're confusing kids "choosing" to play preteen travel whether for additional games or their parents are delusional enough to think it matters by high school, with the "need" to play preteen travel.
Well TG, Maybe I was looking at this the wrong way. Maybe I should have qualified it as good travel teams. 9-12 my son played 2 years up. 10 of those kids are on JV or V. His 12U team. 6 are in HS and all but one made Freshman(very late bloomer). His current team. 5 kids moved on to HS and all are on the HS team. One on V. One on JV and the other three on F. I guess the quality of travel has a lot to do with it.
By the way, kids that don't make it have nothing to do with the conversation. It is about getting ready for HS with serious players and coaches. Did any of those kids play 13 or 14U? If they didn't, they are not what I would call, serious ball players. Where did the other kids your son played with at 13 and 14U come from? 12U travel maybe or is your rec program that good? Ours isn't.
Something else I just thought of. Every team he has played on preached the same thing. Their priority is getting the kids ready for HS. That's it. That is why we chose the teams that we did. I know there are programs out there that have a different priority, but I would be willing to bet that the parents priority is making the HS team.
"I would be willing to bet that the parents priority is making the HS team."
Shouldn't it be the player's priority, not the parents priority? When I started the 13U team with a very good coaching staff I told the parents we would take it year by year. I never discussed preparing for high school ball. I did figure it would ultimately become a showcase team for players who developed to that level. The team I merged with will be a showcase team. As I mentioned previously my son left for a more established situation.
So the parents have the dream for the kid and push him in that direction? I always played baseball because it's fun. My son has done the same. I've never looked past this year and the next until now since he's in high school and people are telling me he's talented.
Now you want to argue about parents and players dreams? Give me a break. Everyone is different. Most kids play because they like it and have dreams of playing in MLB. Dreams. Parents may be a little more realistic and shoot for HS first. LOL.
I'll answer the questions. But I won't do the debate anymore.
"Did any of those kids play 13 or 14U?"
They all played 13U. From 13U to 15U eight fell on the battlefield. I had a couple on the 13U team. I saw some raw potential and tools.
"Where did the other kids your son played with at 13 and 14U come from?"
The 13U team was a gathering of the top twelve year old LL all-stars from the district. I made a list of twenty and got thirteen of them. Some had played 50/70. Some had not. They were all good 13U players. Of the thirteen players, since 13U two have failed and one opted out of baseball to focus on another sport.
At 14U the team was merged with another team. Every one of these kids are playing high school ball and will make varsity by junior year. At fifteen, we moved them up to 16U. This year my son was recruited by a 16U feeder team to an elite 18U showcase team. They will be playing in two 17U showcase tournaments. I'm done coaching. They have a full coaching staff. They don't allow dads to coach.
"I guess the quality of travel has a lot to do with it."
The "travel" teams I mentioned were rec ball all-star teams restricted by boundaries. This leads right back to my point of the value of preteen travel teams in terms of making the high school team. My son did not play the kind of preteen travel you're thinking of. He played what I call advanced rec all-stars travel. It's very common here. Most eliminated LL and Ripken all-star teams head into the "open" tournaments. At eleven and twelve his LL all-star team played into August eliminating the opportunity to play in these tournaments.
Don't confuse high school players choosing to play preteen travel with the need for them to have played. My son could have played on a USSSA 11U or 12U majors team. I didn't see the value. One of the benefits pitched was preparing for high school ball. I was told LL all-stars is a waste of time. I smiled and declined. LL all-stars was a great experience for the players and the families.
TG,
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it. The fact of the matter is that you put your son in travel. You coached him in travel. You saw value in putting him in it. After all the years of putting down travel at the pre teen level you did it yourself. If you play outside of rec, you are playing travel, no matter what you call it. Whether it is weekend double headers or national tournaments, it is pre teen travel with the same goals as all of the other parents doing it. Your team may have been based on rec but you left your rec area to play other teams. How do you think all of the other travel teams started? 90% get started by Dad's wanting their kids to get better for LL. It turns into a travel team just like yours did. It is a step by step adjustment for most. First you try to get better for your rec AS with the other parents, then you try to get better for HS, then you try to get better for college or the draft. It is all tied together. A lot of kids drop out, but others take their place. It always starts in the pre teen years and as they compete, learn, and get better the goals change. I will bet that a lot of parents on your younger teams wanted their kids to get better to play HS or above in the future. All parents have dreams for their kids.
You saw value in it for your son, so you did the same thing that you give people a load of crap about when they do it with their sons but you sugar coat it with a fantasy of we were just doing it for fun. Not very likely. We all do it for the same reasons.
I told you I would not continue the debate. I'll repeat myself one last time. At nine and ten the value was playing baseball into the summer. At eleven and twelve it was prepping for LL all-stars. Neither one has anything to do with high school. I stand by the statement preteen travel ball does not help a kid become a high school baseball player. It's when a player steps on the 60/90 field and proves he can handle the size change is when a player starts the journey to proving he can play high school ball.
You are that guy who doesn't know what he is talking about but won't shut up. You would tell Bill Gates he is wrong about computer programming. It matters not the experience of the posters that differ with you.
Coach,
With all due respect, when was the last time you were involved in youth ball? '83? Things have changed. Things are changing. Showcases, spring HS aged travel leagues, flying cars, all kinds of neat stuff.
Plus their is no reason to work with rec kids, most will quit after 12 anyway. Or you could work with the studs, but they may all be early bloomers and everyone knows they are a waste of time. Kids that play AAA or AA and may be late bloomers that will dominate at 17-18? Wait, they don't play majors so they are worthless too. Is it just the kids that have parents whose check cleared?
Now how do you pick the right kids to work with again? I am a little confused.
As Karch Kirly said when asked what he did to prepare to win all those gold medal, 'I worked hard to have the most success in the next game not to win medals'.
Although 17 of my players have made MLB, 60+ to the pros and over 250 to college, I only tried to help them to have the most success playing in the next game. As a coach, you are not just teaching baseball but lessons in life. I damned sure don't prepare players for HS success. Do you think any HS coach has ever called and thanked me? So why should I care one whit if any HS team wins. But not long ago a young man approached me and said "Hi coach remember me?" I must admit I didn't. He played for me at 9. He was new to the community and hadn't played much baseball but wanted to make new friends. I motivated him to work to contribute as best he could for the team (his new friends). He moved away the next yr and didn't play much baseball after that but he wanted to thank me for helping to make him the man he is today. Standing in front of me was a Marine Captain.
Would we have that Marine Captain with the egaliterian, unearned rewards league baseball system we have today?
I coached arguable the finest 12U team ever assembled. From the starting 9 in the World Series championship game which we won, only 4 played HS baseball.....Nothing that happens on the small field is in anyway a harbinger of future success on the big field.
Danbum if you can find any response other than you are right, I suggest you go and debate Bill Gates about computer programming because you are more likely to win that one.
Coach I have no doubt that you know more about how to hit a ball, field a ball, pitch a ball, etc. You have a resume that is really spectacular. Congrats on your past achievements. Times are a changing. Quickly. Better catch up. People now insist that kids have to play 13U and 14U ball to succeed. Most of your supporters do. Was it that way 20 years ago? It wasn't when I played.
And I bet that Bill Gates hasn't written a program that is used in 20+ years. If you need something, he would send you to his young programmers.
"People now insist that kids have to play 13U and 14U ball to succeed."
Those people want your $$$$$$. That doesn't mean they are right. 13/14 is a transitional age. Puberty. Priorities change. Suddenly being cool is more important than baseball. Chicks are scoped at the ballpark and in some cases worse activities occur.
These are just yrs to get through. The funnel is rapidly narrowing. Most are just playing out the string because this is what they have done every Spring ever since they can remember. Quite frankly there is no age I dislike more. The Legend who was Johnny Stud but never had to work because he developed early moves on because Legends don't sweat. So he decides it is more important to make $$$ to pay for the gas and insurance for the car dad said he will get him but he must cover expenses and without a car he won't get laid.
Now at about 14/15 if they are serious, then you should spend some $$$ by getting them with the best strength and conditioning guy available. I sent mine to Evander Holifield's trainer. The only difference between a stud FR and a stud SR is strength, He can pick it. He can swing it. But his cock shot goes all the way to the outfielder while the Sr's is in the trees. Only the strong survive.
"Now at about 14/15 if they are serious, then you should spend some $$$ by getting them with the best strength and conditioning guy available. I sent mine to Evander Holifield's trainer. The only difference between a stud FR and a stud SR is strength, He can pick it. He can swing it. But his cock shot goes all the way to the outfielder while the Sr's is in the trees. Only the strong survive."
Exactly why my son has been in training and drinking protein shakes this offseason. He's gained twenty-two pounds and a lot of strength since the beginning of November.
"Exactly why my son has been in training and drinking protein shakes this offseason. He's gained twenty-two pounds and a lot of strength since the beginning of November."
If Obama were to ban travel ball tomorrow and all kids had to play in the local league, the sane 5/6 players would still be playing HS as SRs and would be just as good.
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